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It's Never Too Early to Fire

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Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#121

Post by nashashmi »

gommm wrote: post #91

In the first company I confounded, we recruited a friend of my cofounder to a senior job. He looked like the right guy for the job but he actually really wasn't. He was completely underperforming and junior employees looked at him and lost respect for both and my cofounder for keeping him on. Because he was a friend who had left his job to work for us, we didn't fire him and he continued undermining the company with…

Also, if you hire a friend, keep him at a distance, say one or two tiers. This way, feedback will still be there, and you won't be making the decision of firing all by yourself. And of course, work won't come in the way of friendship.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#122

Post by Sorreah »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #2

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

>Anyone we fire we'll sit down in the exit interview and write a plan for how they can get re-hired in a few weeks or months if they're interested. We'll also try to spin off a separate business with the fired person at the head, instead of just firing, whenever possible.

"So hey, listen, this isn't working out, so for the next few months you're going to have to worry about feeding and clothing your child unless you find a new job real quick. Please sit down and write a plan with us about how we can rehire you in a few months if you dedicate all your energy on providing free work for us instead of getting a job!

Oh, by the way, would you want to start a business instead? We value your work low enough that we'd like to fire you, but if you can pay a few of the people we deem low performers out of your own pocket and provide that work for us for free? Even better."

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#124

Post by arjie »

daveguy wrote: post #108
arjie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I understand. I'm just wondering how choices were made which left many millions on the table. I didn't face any choices like that when I was younger so I'm curious.

No offense, but you don't understand. Opportunity cost means specifically you aren't leaving money on the table. It means you are grabbing the pennies when you could be pursuing a more lucrative options. When you are 20 those options don't mean a million dollar deal, they mean not taking the better job that pays about the same but lets you earn 20k more in 2-3 years because you are doing something you love and thrivi…

I'm just interested in his story, man. I really don't want to argue about this.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#125

Post by snarf21 »

noufalibrahim wrote: post #94
wtvanhest wrote: post #5

Just a note, this isnt about firing junior people fast. That is absolutely scummy. This is about hiring/firing very senior, well paid people with lots of prior experience. If you are hiring and then firing junior people fast, you are the problem.

> You are the problem. A minor point. I recently had to let a junior level person go after "giving them a chance" for around 5 months. I did everything I could, extra mentoring, warnings, gentle pressure, lighter work and finally, an opportunity to shift into a simpler projects so that they'd get more comfortable. This was, as the article mentions, emotionally draining for me and unfortunately, the dislike split over…

I agree with everything you said but I think you place to much blame on yourself as a hirer. There will also be people who put on a good front but just want to coast once they get in. This is especially true in big companies that are loathe to fire.

I know people say to keep ramping up the testing and difficulties of interviews but we've started to create a culture where all you end up with is people who are good at that, not creating value for the company. I once had to fire someone because they absolutely refused to fill out an annual self review that would have taken 10 minutes. (There were other similar events that lead up to this). Technically they could do the work just fine but didn't want to live in the real world. I had many conversations about attitude and working with the team. I don't know how an interview process would capture this. Incidentally, I see him at local meetups and he recently told me his is thinking about quitting his current job because their office moved 5 miles away and he didn't want another 5 minutes of commuting.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#126

Post by nashashmi »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #10
wtvanhest wrote: post #5

Just a note, this isnt about firing junior people fast. That is absolutely scummy. This is about hiring/firing very senior, well paid people with lots of prior experience. If you are hiring and then firing junior people fast, you are the problem.

> If you are hiring and then firing junior people fast, you are the problem. I'm going to challenge this point of view. It is absolutely, and obviously, expected that junior people have a ton to learn, and they should be given leeway for that learning process. So yes, if you fire a junior person because you're not willing to put in the mentorship necessary, then I agree, you are the problem. However, junior people re…

My first job as an intern, I was afraid and shy and just complete garbage, but the people I worked with were strict yet forgiving. My second internship, I had no clue what I was doing, and probably did not deserve to stay there, but my boss/mentor was a jerk (something I realized later on) and I was fired/laid off.

That termination taught me a lesson to: * Only bite what I can chew.

* If I am not confident in doing the job, I should not take it.

*If I can chew very little, then I focus on expanding to take on more.

True Entrepreneurial Spirit followed.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#127

Post by tiatia »

I have a different take. Never forget that you can get fired but also never forget you can fire!

You can fire jobs.

You can fire friends.

You can fire customers.

Makes life so much easier!

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#128

Post by Spooky23 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #2

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

Firing people is a failure on both parties part. If you're seriously thinking that firing new hires within a week is a good idea, and you're not talking fast food or day labor, you're a menace.

I've had hundreds of employees under my direct or indirect supervision. Other than pre-career fast food type gigs, I've had to fire 2 for cause. Even in the fast food/retail gigs, I think we canned like 5-6, for attendance problems or pilferage... most problem people there came down to needing a frank discussion about showing up on time and could be addressed without termination.

People aren't robots. Your supervisors, managers and leaders need to know how to hire and manage people effectively.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#129

Post by arjie »

afpx wrote: post #113
arjie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I understand. I'm just wondering how choices were made which left many millions on the table. I didn't face any choices like that when I was younger so I'm curious.

Opportunity costs and the missed investment returns I am now in my mid 40s. I started working in tech in the mid-90s. I was ambitious and mainly only worked for or led tech startups. (I did well for myself, so can't complain too much) When I look back on my career, had I went with my intuition at critical times, instead of what I felt was 'my duty' (or whatever justification I made to deny my intuitive senses), I wou…

Thanks for sharing, man.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#130

Post by phkahler »

>> After a while of trying and challenging them directly to step up you’ve realized that what sounded like their “experience” in the interview and even confirmed in reference checks, turns out to be things they observed but they didn’t really drive (or truly understood from within) and therefore can’t replicate.

That is a sign of a poor hiring process. It's a common mistake but it's the number one thing I try to figure out when hiring. I'll have to write a blog about it some time.

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