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It's Never Too Early to Fire

a16z.com

101–110 of 189 posts

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a senior programmer with a bit more life experience, I quit somewhere after only 2 months. They valued me, the pay was great, the tech challenges were interesting, but their processes drove me potty. I have never regretted it and only feel relief whenever I think about it. I walked straight into another job. If I were to stop freelancing and get a job again, I would just leave it off my CV.

> As a senior programmer with a bit more life experience, I quit somewhere after only 2 months. They valued me, the pay was great, the tech challenges were interesting, but their processes drove me potty. I've done something similar twice, except there were no interesting technical challenges. Both were government jobs where I was lured in to do all this cool work and then get told to sit there and do nothing. The pa…

I was hired into my current position (as a contractor at a government facility) to be a 'software architect and software engineering subject matter expert.' The way the position was sold to me, it sounded like a good step-up in responsibility and an opportunity to grow.

What I'm actually doing could be considered a cross between 'IT guy' and 'generic office staff' (I go to tons of meetings, write lots of system-engineering-esque documents no one will read, and because I am 'a computer guy', I'm bombarded with annoying IT technician-level questions all the time). I'm extremely overpaid for what I'm doing (I'm bored out of my skull most of the time), but the local job market is such that I'd probably spend several months unemployed if I were to just up and quit.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#102
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pointing out an important difference: firing because of experience/performance vs firing because of behavior. Being a bit naive, making mistakes, and needing ramp-up time is to be expected, especially from a junior hire. You absolutely need to give time to correct that sort of thing, and firing fast is not a good move. Some of the best devs I've worked with needed a few months to ramp upbefore they hit full st…

I just want you to know that I'm a beginner in management (having hired two juniors for my startup), and I'll use this advice (The junior is not productive, but him being reasonably motivated is the reason why I'll keep him).

Conversely, ramp-up time should not be infinite. A junior employee should not be limping along after a year at the company. Either that person just isn't a fit, or there is something terribly wrong at your company.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#103
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a serious legal risk to re-hire fired employees. That's interesting to hear. Could you explain in what way?

Maybe its a US thing - here in the UK I've seen multiple people re-hired and in each case it worked out pretty well.

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge outside the US (it wasn't for me): "Fired" and "let go/laid off" don't mean the same thing. Fired means they were laid off for some gross reason, e.g. incompetence, stealing from the company, etc. Laid off means they were just let go because of reasons not very related to their performance.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its a US thing - here in the UK I've seen multiple people re-hired and in each case it worked out pretty well.

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge outside the US (it wasn't for me): "Fired" and "let go/laid off" don't mean the same thing. Fired means they were laid off for some gross reason, e.g. incompetence, stealing from the company, etc. Laid off means they were just let go because of reasons not very related to their performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

> Fired means they were laid off for some gross reason

You're correct in spirit, but no one ever uses the phrase "laid off" to mean "fired". "Laid off" usually means you were let go because of say, financial problems in the company, no need for your position, etc. "Fired" implies cause.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#105

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

how is it "hard" to fire in the USA

If anything, it's far too easy.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its a US thing - here in the UK I've seen multiple people re-hired and in each case it worked out pretty well.

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge outside the US (it wasn't for me): "Fired" and "let go/laid off" don't mean the same thing. Fired means they were laid off for some gross reason, e.g. incompetence, stealing from the company, etc. Laid off means they were just let go because of reasons not very related to their performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right. "laid off" would tend to mean "made redundant".

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#107
This is probably the worst advice for a young founder.

Had a client who was a 24-year-old startup founder, one of his investors got me involved to help him hire some folks and help define project process.

We hired a great developer, who freaked when he saw how sloppy the code was. Rightfully said, "We can't maintain this..."

Anyway, the founder had written a lot of it, so it wasn't a shock to him that the code was bad and needed to be re-done. Hew knew it was all quick and dirty and hacked together. By the time I got inovlved, we had issues doing deployments (deployments would take half a day and a lot of stress around testing once code went live), we had issues around infrastructure being unstable (lost 2 days worth of customer data once after a bug caused the DB to crash), and of course, nothing would have scaled. No code review, not much of a QA process, just a million things that needed to be done better -- you can cut some corners as a startup, you can't cut every corner.

There were a handful of paying clients, but most had been sold a promise of feature A-through-Z, and really the tools did like A-through-C... the moment one of them complained the young CEO lost it because he hated criticism, especially from customers, and he didn't want people to think he had lied to them... even though he had pretty clearly over-promised.

The dev I brought on wanted to re-do a lot of things, write unit tests, set up a CI / CD process, proper backups, basically do all the stuff that should have been done day one to ensure we could work fast and have confidence the wheels wouldn't come off. The founder had been on board with trying to reduce outages and crashes, but about a week into it, when one of the customers complained about something, the young CEO freaked when he couldn't simultaneously have new features and a re-done core codebase on the schedule he wanted.

So even though a week before he had said that he liked the idea of reducing a lot of our technical debt, and giving the new dev a chance to work on clean good code... since he was young (not sure if that's the best excuse) he flip-flopped. And three weeks into the overhaul (that was supposed to take 5 weeks), he was furious. "This dev is costing us time and just doesn't get our culture and isn't aligned with our goals and just isn't working out!"

I got called in, looked over what the dev had done. Nothing short of a miracle he had accomplished so much so fast. I said as much. Later that day I get an email from the founder, "I had to let [the dev] go, he just wasn't working out." I left the project shortly after, and the founder burned through another $300k in seed money (his parents') before shutting down.

Anyway this whole "trust your gut" thing... and "don't ask around before firing" -- that's only good advice if you've got some experience and a cool temperament.

If you're a new CEO, ask around. Figure out what's going on, and if you tell people to zig, and they zig, don't get mad at them for not zagging -- they aren't mind-readers. Flipping on decisions like that are extremely demotivating to everyone who works for you, and flipping on a hire (firing someone) is the potentially most demotivating thing you can do if it's not done correctly. You hire smart people, if you can't trust their expertise, don't hire them. Since you trust their expertise, don't micromanage them, or expect the impossible from them.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#108
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reckon it is meant in a "opportunity cost" kind of way.

Oh, I understand. I'm just wondering how choices were made which left many millions on the table. I didn't face any choices like that when I was younger so I'm curious.

No offense, but you don't understand. Opportunity cost means specifically you aren't leaving money on the table. It means you are grabbing the pennies when you could be pursuing a more lucrative options. When you are 20 those options don't mean a million dollar deal, they mean not taking the better job that pays about the same but lets you earn 20k more in 2-3 years because you are doing something you love and thriving in it with fewer restarts. That over 20-40 years adds up to "millions in the bank", which is what the original poster said, not millions on the table.

A few times not seeing bad management in a startup where you took options rather than a decent wage would do it too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#109
post #24

Actually, pretty good advice in the opposite direction, too. If I had known at 18 that I could have easily and successfully walked away from teams, bosses, companies, partners, and investors who gave 'bad vibes', I would easily have (at least!) an extra couple million in the bank. I wasted countless opportunities waiting for things to get better, when I probably intuitively knew that they wouldn't. Partly, it was bec…

That's the first thing I thought as well.

Never be afraid to fire a bad job. If you don't it will potentially screw your life up the same as bad management can a company.

The key for both ends I think though is "Sparingly" and make sure you have other options first. (Unless the situation is just so bad it outweighs lack of options.)

Point being, if you are company who is firing a lot of people, or an employee who is firing a lot of jobs, the problem may just be you!

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#110
From the last couple paragraphs this reads like a16z is still mad over getting fired years ago. They should know that being fired is a traumatic experience, and not use this as justification for their future carelessness. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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