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1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

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Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#541

Post by Bartweiss »

sethev wrote: post #60
gruez wrote: post #31

Counter: the border agent asks "are you hiding any information from us?". answer yes, and they get you to disable travel mode. answer no, and you just committed a felony.

So are you required to have all the data that's ever been on your device at the time that you cross an international border? Are you required to copy passwords that were never in 1password onto your device before you travel? EDIT: Another way to put this: Is there an expectation that a border agent could, for example, ask for the password to my bank account? If not, how would there be an expectation that if that used…

Are you a citizen? Because if not, the answer to all of this is "whatever the hell border patrol wants". As far as I know, you absolutely could be asked for your bank account password. You wouldn't be, because any agent asking would probably be fired to avoid a media circus, but it's not actually against any rule. Border patrol discretion for non-citizens is almost absolute.

If you are a citizen, it's not clear that anything at all can be demanded, even logging into an account already on the device. It just hasn't been put to an unambiguous court challenge.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#542

Post by Bartweiss »

dragonwriter wrote: post #540
Bartweiss wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Normally, they can ask whatever the eff they like to decide whether to grant you entry or not. Yep. There's this tendency to say "I beat their rules, so they have to let me go!" The CBP aren't fairies, they aren't bound to stay within some narrow precommitment. At least if you're not a US citizen, these things are almost totally discretionary. Not only can they bar you for not unlocking Facebook, they can bar your…

> The TSA aren't fairies, they aren't bound to stay within some narrow precommitment. At least if you're not a US citizen, these things are almost totally discretionary. I think you are confusing TSA with CBP here.

Thanks, fixed that.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#543

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #540
Bartweiss wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Normally, they can ask whatever the eff they like to decide whether to grant you entry or not. Yep. There's this tendency to say "I beat their rules, so they have to let me go!" The CBP aren't fairies, they aren't bound to stay within some narrow precommitment. At least if you're not a US citizen, these things are almost totally discretionary. Not only can they bar you for not unlocking Facebook, they can bar your…

> The TSA aren't fairies, they aren't bound to stay within some narrow precommitment. At least if you're not a US citizen, these things are almost totally discretionary. I think you are confusing TSA with CBP here.

[deleted]

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#544

Post by Bartweiss »

awinter-py wrote: post #52
gruez wrote: post #31

Counter: the border agent asks "are you hiding any information from us?". answer yes, and they get you to disable travel mode. answer no, and you just committed a felony.

If you're a citizen you don't have to answer any question until you've been accused of a crime and have a lawyer present. Also, the case law is iffy on whether a one-word answer of 'no' can be used in an obstruction charge. (read about 'exculpatory no doctrine').

...can you clarify this?

Looking up 'exculpatory no' implies that the matter was clearly settled in 1998 by the Supreme Court, which decided the doctrine is wholly invalid and the obstruction charge can be applied.

If there's iffy case law here, I'm not finding it successfully.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#545

Post by tjl »

mcv wrote: post #450
edaemon wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of travel mode isn't to dodge border control policies or questioning; the point is to prevent the exposure of credentials when travelling, even if the exposure is to a border agency. If a border agent asks you directly, "Did you remove information from this device to prevent us or others from seeing it when entering or within this country?" the only truthful answer is "Yes", but travel mode has still achiev…

At some point, you're going to have to have a separate device for international travel. Then they'd have to ask: "Do you have another device back home that you didn't bring because it contains sensitive information?"

Even back in the 90s, I knew people who would bring a separate travel laptop that would just have the basic set of apps and a VPN client. So, once you got to your destination, you'd login via VPN and download what you needed. This was at Nortel, so it's not like it was a very high security company, just moderately secure. Not everybody did that, but certainly enough people did. The department kept a couple spare laptops for just this purpose that would get wiped and restored to their default config after the travel.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#546

Post by SamBam »

apetresc wrote: post #507
SamBam wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you travel without your phone, they still have the right to demand access to your email account? How does that make any sense?

I don't know whether or not they have the right - do they have the right to read some sealed-up documents in your briefcase? Whatever your answer to that question is, it should probably be the same answer to the e-mail question. All these trick arguments about "oh but the e-mail's not actually on my phone, it's in the cloud!" don't hold water for me; it's information you're bringing into the country. Either it's subj…

But how are you "bringing your email into the country" any more than you would be if you just sent an email?

If they can't access my sent email when I send it from abroad without a warrant, then how does me entering the country without a phone or computer allow them access to my email?

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#547

Post by qmr »

techsupporter wrote: post #381
veidr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a practical approach, and my comment here isn't necessarily aimed at you, chx (since I don't know your citizenship status), but I would add this entreaty to American citizens like me: If you ever get asked that question at the US border, please don't acquiesce to that request. They have the right to ask, and they even have the power to search it regardless of your permission, but despite an alarming drift toward…

> If you[, a citizen of the United States,] ever get asked that question at the US border, please don't acquiesce to that request. Absolutely agreed. I will do this[0]. I'm a U.S. citizen with the unequivocal right to enter the country once my citizenship has been established. U.S. citizens are the only ones who can stand up to this madness--either at the border or by influencing and electing people who can change th…

PLEASE GET DETAINED.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#548

Post by sethev »

Bartweiss wrote: post #541
sethev wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you required to have all the data that's ever been on your device at the time that you cross an international border? Are you required to copy passwords that were never in 1password onto your device before you travel? EDIT: Another way to put this: Is there an expectation that a border agent could, for example, ask for the password to my bank account? If not, how would there be an expectation that if that used…

Are you a citizen? Because if not, the answer to all of this is "whatever the hell border patrol wants". As far as I know, you absolutely could be asked for your bank account password. You wouldn't be, because any agent asking would probably be fired to avoid a media circus, but it's not actually against any rule. Border patrol discretion for non-citizens is almost absolute. If you are a citizen, it's not clear that…

This issue seems to be a bit of a geek trap. Yes, border agents have a fair amount of authority. No, you're not required to twist your mind into a pretzel trying to decide whether what you choose to put on your device constitutes hiding the things you left off. If an agent is asking you something as specific as "did you enable travel mode in 1password" you've probably already triggered some suspicion.

Some of the responses on this thread make it sound like there are people who would actually start explaining travel mode unprompted because they arrived at it by some twisted logic about what 'hiding' means.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#549

Post by dflock »

nihonium wrote: post #535
dflock wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, they generally don't just aimlessly scroll through your email/facebook in front of you, then give your device back (although they can, if they feel like it) - they get you to surrender your credentials, then save these in their database; the contents of the accounts will then be downloaded automatically. Same for devices - they have you unlock the device, then take it away, plug it into a PC/whate…

Thanks for the details? Is it a common procedure? Are they doing that to everyone coming to US?

I think the answers to those are probably: No one really knows, and No, not yet - although they do now (optionally) ask for your facebook/twitter usernames when applying for an ETSA.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#550

Post by awinter-py »

Bartweiss wrote: post #544
awinter-py wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a citizen you don't have to answer any question until you've been accused of a crime and have a lawyer present. Also, the case law is iffy on whether a one-word answer of 'no' can be used in an obstruction charge. (read about 'exculpatory no doctrine').

...can you clarify this? Looking up 'exculpatory no' implies that the matter was clearly settled in 1998 by the Supreme Court, which decided the doctrine is wholly invalid and the obstruction charge can be applied. If there's iffy case law here, I'm not finding it successfully.

I'm not a lawyer so don't trust my take on what's safe to say to the cops.

I feel like I saw a recent exception to this, but even if I didn't:

1998 is pre-9/11, pre-TSA, pre- the large riots of the 2000s and 2010s like ferguson and occupy. It's pre-snowden, pre-aaron swartz. It's pre-iphone which means its pre every case about recording cops in public. It's pre stop and frisk.

Criminal justice has changed a lot since 1998.

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