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DevOps is a culture, not a role

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Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#91
post #81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, please stop using that definition immediately. It's incredibly unhelpful, and just encourages management to understaff.

To be fair it does look like that's what it's supposed to mean. It looks like a combination of Dev and Ops, at a glance it should mean it describes a combination of roles too. I tut at management as much as the next guy but whoever came up with DevOps didn't really help themselves there :)

Well, the full term is Development Operations, meaning the branch of Operations concerned with supporting Development. I recoiled from the definition you offered because I've actually witnessed an organization use that as a justification for not hiring any Operations staff, which is a terrible idea.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#92

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

DevOps, is a developer, that do admin stuff, because the development environment became more complex with the introduction of virtualization , cloud technologies and big data

Admins who do Dev work should be called OpsDev ...

A DevOps, is a Developer , someone who started as a developer and now do extra admin and systems work

Not the other way around ..

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#94
My official title is DevOps, but my coworkers know that I'm just the most cloud-oriented developer on the team. In that regard I also regularly push code into our products, with an insistence that I am not simply the guy that does AWS/Jenkins/Ansible work.

So, in one respect I entirely agree that DevOps is just another developer, at least the way I practice it. That being said, it's naive to think that DevOps isn't a specialization, or that everyone writing your code is going to be equally knowledgable on a product landscape as complex as AWS.

Ultimately where you fall on the spectrum of developer and ops is company specific, even project specific, and to try and make some generalizable dogma on the issue is a waste of time.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#95
post #92

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

DevOps, is a developer, that do admin stuff, because the development environment became more complex with the introduction of virtualization , cloud technologies and big data Admins who do Dev work should be called OpsDev ... A DevOps, is a Developer , someone who started as a developer and now do extra admin and systems work Not the other way around ..

I kind of agree with you that having this distinction would be useful. The real key is it isn't about "dev work". It is a cross between Ops, Dev, and Build. The build is actually more important than the Dev. Even bigger is who you report to. In the old world as Ops you reported to an Ops manager. The to Devops is that you report to the Dev manager, hence breaking down the silos. You could just call it Devops, but I call it embedded Devops to be clearer.

On the flip side I seen just how poorly Dev managers and Dev team leads can understand Ops. It is even worse when they think they do, but don't. This can make Devops painful.

There is also a problem with having an individual Devops on each Dev team. You will end up with each Dev team doing things completely different ways. One will be Ubuntu, one Debian, one CentOS, one instances, and one containers. There should be some standardizing force across the teams.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#96
post #47

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

> both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code Wait have I been using the wrong definition? I thought DevOps were devs that also setup/maintain their own infrastructure

That is NoOps, but somewhat depends. You could have a developer who has a dedicated job of managing the infrastructure, but still doing some development work. Also don't forget the build engineer part for automating deploys. But if the responsibility is spread across the team, that is NoOps. It also tends to lead to a tragedy of the commons situation, because no one steps up to do the things that aren't fun.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#97
Devops just means your IT people are software engineers. That's it.

Web systems are so complex (and automated) to manage these days that you need to be able to write code to manage the infastructure.

Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops. As far as I'm aware all of their main support people are software devs

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#98
I am a DevOps Engineer by trade and title.

Here is my take on this:

It is a role - not something that can be done by OPS or DEV or SEC or what have you.

Allow me to explain my 2 cents worth:

- With the amounts of tooling (CI/CD pipeline, infrastructure monitoring, infra. provisioning, config. management, etc.), you do not want your DEVs or your full-time admins focusing on this bit at-all. It is good if they have some know-how (or even if they do the initial groundwork) but if your DEVs or sys admins are focusing on what 'entails' as DevOps -- then Houston, we got a problem. Because this means that DEV or sys admin or what have you is not focusing 100% on their role.

- Why is 'DevOps' getting so much flak?? How about titles/roles such as 'scrum master' or 'Agile Practitioner' or 'Product Owner'?

- I am not a noob by any means (~10 yr IT experience) and I am past the stage of getting excited by a job title. However, the 'DevOps' title given to a 'DevOps' guy is a correct move. AND, believe-it-or-not, it is a IT specialization -- just like 'cloud' is. Just because everything is a code doesn't mean you don't need a dedicated person who will not only preach DevOps -- but will also 'implement' DevOps -- and that fella should be called 'DevOps' -- just like 'Agile Coach' ;-)

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#99

Devops just means your IT people are software engineers. That's it. Web systems are so complex (and automated) to manage these days that you need to be able to write code to manage the infastructure. Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops. As far as I'm aware all of their main support people are software devs

> Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops

Are you of the opinion that DevOps, like Agile, is a buzzword and money making opportunity? I had a brief stint in a DevOps-ish role and that was my conclusion.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#100

First, let me say I totally agree with the premise here--that all parts of a software engineering organization need to be on board with DevOps, buying in to the vision, learning the full stack, taking responsibility. However, this article does serve as a good example of one of the big problems with most DevOps/SRE evangelism: It's usually coming from the Dev- perspective, rather than the -Ops perspective (or better,…

Agreed, it seems like a lot of people think about devops as a way to make dev's lives better without actively harming ops. The article does have a section on getting Ops on board with devops, but it's much weaker than the previous section on getting Dev on board. Devops done right should really improve both sides, as it explicitly recognizes the tradeoffs involved with the added automation / processes / policies. I've been reading Google's Site Reliability Engineering book ([1], free online, highly recommend so far) and it lays out pretty clearly how to do devops in a more balanced way. Key points are:

- Define service level indicators (SLIs), metrics you can track to see how you're doing on the things your users care about: uptime, latency, security, etc. For instance, measure uptime as successful responses / total requests.

- Define service level objectives (SLOs) based on your SLIs, e.g. 99.9% successful responses / total requests (aka 99.9% uptime)

- Establish an error budget which controls your deployments. Based on your SLOs you can accept a certain number of errors (failed requests, outages, slow response times, etc) for a given period. If you spend your entire error budget, no new code can be deployed. The deployment shutoff has to be agreed upon in advance and it has to be a hard and fast rule, so it's not ops' fault that dev can't deploy code.

- If you reach your error budget, devs need to work on things to reduce error rate going forward instead of developing new features. It can be tests, monitoring and alerting, rollback process, or pretty much anything, but devs should know that they're doing it so they can deploy more code faster in the future.

I think this makes a lot of sense and helps to align dev and ops on uptime goals. Specifically, dev's ability to push code is now directly tied to service level, and ops is not shooting for 100% reliability. Dev can choose how to spend the error budget, so ops isn't dictating how they do things; and ops knows and expects a certain number of problems, so they don't resent dev every time they push buggy code.

[1] https://landing.google.com/sre/book.html

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