Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, please stop using that definition immediately. It's incredibly unhelpful, and just encourages management to understaff.
To be fair it does look like that's what it's supposed to mean. It looks like a combination of Dev and Ops, at a glance it should mean it describes a combination of roles too. I tut at management as much as the next guy but whoever came up with DevOps didn't really help themselves there :)
DevOps is a culture, not a role
91–100 of 139 posts
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#92"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…
Admins who do Dev work should be called OpsDev ...
A DevOps, is a Developer , someone who started as a developer and now do extra admin and systems work
Not the other way around ..
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#93Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#94So, in one respect I entirely agree that DevOps is just another developer, at least the way I practice it. That being said, it's naive to think that DevOps isn't a specialization, or that everyone writing your code is going to be equally knowledgable on a product landscape as complex as AWS.
Ultimately where you fall on the spectrum of developer and ops is company specific, even project specific, and to try and make some generalizable dogma on the issue is a waste of time.
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#95"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…
DevOps, is a developer, that do admin stuff, because the development environment became more complex with the introduction of virtualization , cloud technologies and big data Admins who do Dev work should be called OpsDev ... A DevOps, is a Developer , someone who started as a developer and now do extra admin and systems work Not the other way around ..
On the flip side I seen just how poorly Dev managers and Dev team leads can understand Ops. It is even worse when they think they do, but don't. This can make Devops painful.
There is also a problem with having an individual Devops on each Dev team. You will end up with each Dev team doing things completely different ways. One will be Ubuntu, one Debian, one CentOS, one instances, and one containers. There should be some standardizing force across the teams.
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#96"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…
> both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code Wait have I been using the wrong definition? I thought DevOps were devs that also setup/maintain their own infrastructure
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#97Web systems are so complex (and automated) to manage these days that you need to be able to write code to manage the infastructure.
Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops. As far as I'm aware all of their main support people are software devs
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#98Here is my take on this:
It is a role - not something that can be done by OPS or DEV or SEC or what have you.
Allow me to explain my 2 cents worth:
- With the amounts of tooling (CI/CD pipeline, infrastructure monitoring, infra. provisioning, config. management, etc.), you do not want your DEVs or your full-time admins focusing on this bit at-all. It is good if they have some know-how (or even if they do the initial groundwork) but if your DEVs or sys admins are focusing on what 'entails' as DevOps -- then Houston, we got a problem. Because this means that DEV or sys admin or what have you is not focusing 100% on their role.
- Why is 'DevOps' getting so much flak?? How about titles/roles such as 'scrum master' or 'Agile Practitioner' or 'Product Owner'?
- I am not a noob by any means (~10 yr IT experience) and I am past the stage of getting excited by a job title. However, the 'DevOps' title given to a 'DevOps' guy is a correct move. AND, believe-it-or-not, it is a IT specialization -- just like 'cloud' is. Just because everything is a code doesn't mean you don't need a dedicated person who will not only preach DevOps -- but will also 'implement' DevOps -- and that fella should be called 'DevOps' -- just like 'Agile Coach' ;-)
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#99Devops just means your IT people are software engineers. That's it. Web systems are so complex (and automated) to manage these days that you need to be able to write code to manage the infastructure. Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops. As far as I'm aware all of their main support people are software devs
Are you of the opinion that DevOps, like Agile, is a buzzword and money making opportunity? I had a brief stint in a DevOps-ish role and that was my conclusion.
Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role
#100First, let me say I totally agree with the premise here--that all parts of a software engineering organization need to be on board with DevOps, buying in to the vision, learning the full stack, taking responsibility. However, this article does serve as a good example of one of the big problems with most DevOps/SRE evangelism: It's usually coming from the Dev- perspective, rather than the -Ops perspective (or better,…
- Define service level indicators (SLIs), metrics you can track to see how you're doing on the things your users care about: uptime, latency, security, etc. For instance, measure uptime as successful responses / total requests.
- Define service level objectives (SLOs) based on your SLIs, e.g. 99.9% successful responses / total requests (aka 99.9% uptime)
- Establish an error budget which controls your deployments. Based on your SLOs you can accept a certain number of errors (failed requests, outages, slow response times, etc) for a given period. If you spend your entire error budget, no new code can be deployed. The deployment shutoff has to be agreed upon in advance and it has to be a hard and fast rule, so it's not ops' fault that dev can't deploy code.
- If you reach your error budget, devs need to work on things to reduce error rate going forward instead of developing new features. It can be tests, monitoring and alerting, rollback process, or pretty much anything, but devs should know that they're doing it so they can deploy more code faster in the future.
I think this makes a lot of sense and helps to align dev and ops on uptime goals. Specifically, dev's ability to push code is now directly tied to service level, and ops is not shooting for 100% reliability. Dev can choose how to spend the error budget, so ops isn't dictating how they do things; and ops knows and expects a certain number of problems, so they don't resent dev every time they push buggy code.