Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surprised this sentiment isn't more popular, they've proven themselves to be both dishonest and incompetent. This could also be state propoganda, the modern US being what it is.
> Surprised this sentiment isn't more popular, they've proven themselves to be both dishonest and incompetent. Maybe because the question of whether they are dishonest and incompetent is a less interesting ad hominem (ad companis ?) than the question of whether China can or cannot sustain its debt-fueled binge.
China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
171–180 of 263 posts
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Surprised this sentiment isn't more popular, they've proven themselves to be both dishonest and incompetent. Maybe because the question of whether they are dishonest and incompetent is a less interesting ad hominem (ad companis ?) than the question of whether China can or cannot sustain its debt-fueled binge.
Whether or not it's "interesting", the trustworthiness of the source seems rather important.
Not really. If the question is about the popularity of a sentiment, then of course the interestingness of the sentiment is relevant.
But as with every argument, it's the quality of the argument that is important, not the arguer. The only way that the trustworthiness of the source is important is if you are unable to evaluate their argument based on other factors and were planning merely to trust them or key information they relied on based on their perceived authority which I agree would be a bad idea.
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#173Moody's? Is that the same credit rating agency which intentionally inflated credit rating for risky mortgage investment and eventually fined almost $1b[1]? It is just so funny that an agency that has already destroyed its own creditability is still running around and doing credit rating for others. [1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-14/moodys-agrees-settleme...
Yes I believe that would the one and the same. I find it very ironic that Moody is pointing a finger at China's "debt-fueled binge" when plenty of federal debt issues are staring us right in the face here in the US. The 8 years of Obama doubled a national debt that had taken about 230 years to accumulate. No regime in the history of America has even come close to that debt figure, and current US obligations looking f…
It's obviously bad to have out-of-control debt, but it's worth expressing national debt as % of GDP for two reasons: (a) the GDP of a nation is an engine to be used for repayment and (b) it accounts better for inflation (in periods that the nation is off the gold standard). In that context, the Obama years did not put us back up to the record (WWII).
Here are some visualizations (I assume the data is correct, I'm not affiliated with this site): http://metrocosm.com/history-of-us-taxes/
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate? From the article, Pettis assumes the following is true: 1) China has overinvested in infrastructure and manufacturing capacity to such an extent that in the aggregate the cost of additional public sector investment exceeds the present value of future increases in productivity generated by the investment and 2) China's long-term sustainable growth rate is substantially below the economy's current GD…
He elaborates on technology improvement in other articles, but it boils down to: technological improvements have a range of returns, but even the most optimistic of historical returns to technological progress can't paper over the debt-fueled boom China is currently undergoing. Basically, qualitatively, you're right. Technological improvements can generate growth from scratch. But when you look at the historical data…
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a developing country, China has lots of easy productivity growth just by adopting current technologies on the technological frontier. High rates of growth in developing countries, with the rate slowing as they 'catch-up' to more developed countries, is also what the bog-standard macro-growth model (Solow-Swan) predicts.[0] To simplify, developing countries will have lots of labour inputs and relatively few capital…
Solow-Swan model is based on neoclassical economics that assumes a closed market with zero technological growth. In the event of technological growth it assumes a steady state is still reached. And I quote, "Due to Common Sense." [1] How TF do you consider this a valid scientific theory? This is a theory based on NeoClassical economics which modern Behavior Economics finds that the models of NeoClassical economics fa…
- This is just a simplified description of probably the simplest macro-economic growth model you'll learn if you study economics. It's basically the model you learn in Macro 101. I didn't really want to write a super-long post going through all the extensions of the base model (not to mention the more complicated micro-economically founded concepts, models and theories you'd learn if you study developmental economics) as one of the predictions of the simple model that I thought relevant, that economies experience slower rates of growth as they reach capital saturation, is empirically supported.
- It's not intended to accurately reflect all aspects of a actual economy. No model is. If a model did this, it wouldn't be a model. We would probably just call it 'the economy'. It's just a simplified model from which a number of more complex extensions have been made, but I didn't feel were worth going into.
- It doesn't purport to make realistic assumptions, and no-one with any sense would think that to be the case. In addition to what you've pointed out, it also assumes the economy only produces a single good, has no government, no international trade, and constant returns to scale. All of these are almost certainly incorrect to varying degrees. Despite these simplifying assumptions, that does not mean the model is useless, or that it does not make any testable predictions. No-one in their right mind would think these assumptions are correct.
I'm honestly not sure what level of realism you expect an economic model to have. Just because a model is strictly wrong (as all models are; hence the name: model), does not mean it isn't useful. You mention empirical results from behavioural economics, which strongly suggest the neoclassical assumption of perfect actor rationality is incorrect. Again, this is just a simplifying assumption under which models can still yield accurate predictions in the large. Is Newton's law of gravitation completely correct? No, and it's been superseded by general relativity. However, is it still useful? Yes.
I can't really think of any economists (and this is certainly true for those I work with), let alone any people in general, who would believe any of these assumptions accurately reflect reality. There are a whole bunch of others too, like the implicit assumption that the labour-capital split of income remains constant. This is also almost certainly not correct as well.
It, and its extensions which account for 'human capital' (which has a multiplicative effect when combined with physical capital) which the simplified model just rolls into the solow residual (i.e. total factor productivity), do make a number of testable predictions, some of which have actually been tested in cross-country econometric studies. For example, here's a paper that examines a number of extended models, and among other things, examines the evidence for absolute vs conditional convergence (http://www2.stat.unibo.it/brasili/file/2009-2010/COSDI/chap1..., see pages 48 & 49).
You can literally just look at the model equation, do some simple algebra to turn one of the independent variables into the sole dependent variable and, presto, you have a prediction. Here are a few:
- An economy will converge to a balanced-growth equilibrium, regardless of its starting point. At this point, the growth of output per worker is determined solely by the rate of technological progress.
- At equilibrium, the capital/output ratio depends only on savings, growth, and depreciation rates.
- Countries with higher savings rates will accumulate capital at a faster rate (if all other relevant features of these economies are the same, which they aren't).
- If productivity is the same across countries (which it isn't), then countries with less capital per worker will have a higher marginal productivity of capital and provide a higher return on capital investment. Consequently, in a world of open market economies and global financial capital (which does not exist, and probably can't), investment will flow from rich countries to poor countries, until capital/worker and income/worker equalise across countries.
All that said, if you are able to produce a model that makes no incorrect assumptions, accurately accounts for bounded rationality, and all its predictions in every real world scenario are accurate, you'll win a nobel prize (and will also become filthy rich by investing according to this super-model's predictions).
Given us economist have simply just been 'doing it wrong' this whole time, because we foolishly didn't realise SF computer programmers held a much deeper understanding of macroeconomics, I'm really excited to being a first-hand witness to, what will be, a quantum leap in our understanding of macroeconomic dynamics and development economics.
I'll try to make sure to list every relevant caveat (the above is only a partial list, at best, for this particular model btw), before daring to discuss an unscientific subject like economics (which I apparently know nothing about).
EDIT: Oh fuck it. I quit.
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#176I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…
It seems like smart people have been predicting that China's growth is unsustainable on a regular basis for at least 15 years... it's tough for an average HNer like myself to take the time to tell which "expert" is just blowing smoke and which expert truly has a handle on the salient facts- Guess all I can really do is simply wait and see who ends up being right...
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#177For this subject I would like to offer this counter view: Why China bears are wrong: An interview with Andy Rothman ( http://supchina.com/sinica/china-bears-wrong-interview-andy-... ) As it is likely for someone to mention the Ghost cities, I recommend this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBBQ-wF87M&list=PLxh5xkC0W-...
Ghost cities are weird: first they talk about the ghost cities, then others say the ghost cities are filling up. If you actually visit, say, Ordos New Town, you'll really get that, no, those ghost cities really exist. Some will fill up, like Pudong did, I get Tianjin's new financial district will also. But those in areas with little economic hope in the near term (Ordos and dying coal), they really aren't going to ha…
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your comment goes pretty hard against the popular opinion of what happened. It would be good if you could explain your reasoning.
Not the OP, but 15,000 people died because of the tsunami. No one died from the radiation release at Fukushima and: "A comprehensive assessment by international experts on the health risks associated with the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant (NPP) disaster in Japan has concluded that, for the general population inside and outside of Japan, the predicted risks are low and no observable increases in cancer rates a…
I don't think there's room for many independent experts in such a space that can call a spade a spade.
(And government officials in Japan were caught again and again to downplay the incident to save safe).
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#179The day after the Fukushima nuclear incident, the top-voted article on HN was an extremely confident-sounding article by an expert about how this was a minor incident, sure to be contained and forgotten. The comments in the article were dismissive about alarm. I remember feeling a sigh of relief that the experts had pronounced it a minor incident. As the days rolled by, the news about Fukushima turned from bad to wor…
Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Deficits are mostly attributable to military spending. Post-WWII federal deficits are mostly attributable to declining total effective income tax rates.
Source? The first couple of graphs here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_State... , suggest otherwise. We've rarely had income taxes as a higher percentage of GDP than we do now.