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China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

nytimes.com

51–60 of 263 posts

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#51
post #26

Moody's also says that bundles of subprime mortgages are a AA+ investment.

Have a look at "The Big Short" (the book, not the movie). Reading how clueless those idiots at those Rating Agencys were is fascinating. The had no idea, basically just rating every pile of horseshit AAA because they are dumb and have no idea what they are doing.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#52
post #34

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. My problem with these kind of analysis is that it pretty much only looks at things from a financial perspective thinking it's the be-all-end all. However, on first level principles, money is simply an abstraction; it's a medium for trading your services for other people's services. And if you become more efficient, you can buy more services with the same amount of…

As a developing country, China has lots of easy productivity growth just by adopting current technologies on the technological frontier.

High rates of growth in developing countries, with the rate slowing as they 'catch-up' to more developed countries, is also what the bog-standard macro-growth model (Solow-Swan) predicts.[0] To simplify, developing countries will have lots of labour inputs and relatively few capital inputs. Therefore the marginal factor productivity of each capital input will be high. Eventually, as the economy reaches capital saturation, the marginal productivity of capital will decline and the economy will settle into a low 'steady-state' growth level, where real growth is largely the product of technological advances.

This is why I've always been puzzled by economic commentators who assume China will continue to enjoy 7-9% GDP growth rates forever. Although I'm not suggesting that there's "nothing to see here" in this particular case. China does indeed have a bubble (and massive oversupply) in its residential property market, mostly due to the stimulus deployed just after the GFC. It could make one hell of a pop.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solow%E2%80%93Swan_model#Condi...

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#53
post #31

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

It seems like smart people have been predicting that China's growth is unsustainable on a regular basis for at least 15 years... it's tough for an average HNer like myself to take the time to tell which "expert" is just blowing smoke and which expert truly has a handle on the salient facts- Guess all I can really do is simply wait and see who ends up being right...

Agreed, to an extent (though not every 'expert' is equally reliable). Two ways I look at it:

1) Generally, the nature of a bubble is that nobody knows when it will pop. People knew about the U.S. asset bubble in the mid-2000s for years, but even those not caught up in the bubble mass psychology couldn't accurately predict when it would collapse. The same was true of the dot-com bubble around 2000. You can be right that there is a bubble, but be far wrong about when it ends.

2) There was a stock broker looking for new business. He cold called 512 people (he must have been a quant); half he told to sell X stock, half he told to buy. The next week he called the 256 for whom he'd made the right prediction and did the same again: Half he told to sell, half to buy ... several weeks later he was down to 16 people. He called all of them and said, 'look, I was right 5 times in a row ...'.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#54
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sustainability is a function of total annual deficit relative to growth in ability to service the debt. Deficits that lead to productivity-enhancing investments will pay for themselves: education, infrastructure, etc. Deficits that result from cutting taxes will not: the idea that we're on the virtuous part of the Laffer curve has been thoroughly debunked in economic, if not political, circles. Furthermore, debt in t…

> Sustainability is a function of total annual deficit relative to growth in ability to service the debt And at some point the growth stops, but the policy of expanding generally doesn't. Reality is, Europe and America are going to have further population declines a la Japan. Shrinking population = shrinking growth.

Europe yes, America no.

We have two americas. Wealthy white people and the rest. The rest have a high birth rate.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#55

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

There's also MMT. E.g. https://www.thenation.com/article/the-rock-star-appeal-of-mo... or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d57M6ATPZIE for overview.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#56
post #26

Moody's also says that bundles of subprime mortgages are a AA+ investment.

Have a look at "The Big Short" (the book, not the movie). Reading how clueless those idiots at those Rating Agencys were is fascinating. The had no idea, basically just rating every pile of horseshit AAA because they are dumb and have no idea what they are doing.

The movie was fantastic too, though.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#58
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. My problem with these kind of analysis is that it pretty much only looks at things from a financial perspective thinking it's the be-all-end all. However, on first level principles, money is simply an abstraction; it's a medium for trading your services for other people's services. And if you become more efficient, you can buy more services with the same amount of…

Similarly, if you use Western standards to measure economic metrics of China, everything looks weird. China is still pretty much a planned economy, where the government is in control of major state-owned corporations. I wouldn't worry too much about the debts that they owe to the state.

> I wouldn't worry too much about the debts that they owe to the state.

Why not? The state can forgive the debt, but when those resources disappear from the economy then many people will lose out.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#59

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

Yea, basically the demand for goods from China is fuelled by increasing US and other debt, which increased the value of the yen too. In the 1970s and 1980s when US first got off the gold standard it was Japan I think.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#60
post #31

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

It seems like smart people have been predicting that China's growth is unsustainable on a regular basis for at least 15 years... it's tough for an average HNer like myself to take the time to tell which "expert" is just blowing smoke and which expert truly has a handle on the salient facts- Guess all I can really do is simply wait and see who ends up being right...

To quote Keynes:

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

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