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China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

nytimes.com

41–50 of 263 posts

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#41
post #26

Moody's also says that bundles of subprime mortgages are a AA+ investment.

Following that reasoning, that probably means China's economy situation would be much worse.

I believe the OP is putting the agency's credibility into question, which I think is valid, considering their role in the financial crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the...

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#42
post #6

What about the US's debt-fueled government? Sustainable?

Sustainability is a function of total annual deficit relative to growth in ability to service the debt. Deficits that lead to productivity-enhancing investments will pay for themselves: education, infrastructure, etc. Deficits that result from cutting taxes will not: the idea that we're on the virtuous part of the Laffer curve has been thoroughly debunked in economic, if not political, circles. Furthermore, debt in t…

> Furthermore, debt in the US is a result of exogenous capital flows, not the other way around. If the US government tightened belts and cut heavily, leading to a fiscal surplus (or even just balanced gov't budget), we would see a growth in private sector debt.

Yes.

http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/national-income-account...

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#43
Ok, this is probably a silly question, but who holds all the debt now? The avg US citizen would say China holds much of the US debt, but now it sounds like China is borrowing their way into trouble too... it's not any of these third world countries... who is it?

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#44
For this subject I would like to offer this counter view: Why China bears are wrong: An interview with Andy Rothman (http://supchina.com/sinica/china-bears-wrong-interview-andy-...)

As it is likely for someone to mention the Ghost cities, I recommend this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBBQ-wF87M&list=PLxh5xkC0W-...

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have been waiting decades for Japan's post-boom day of reckoning and we've not seen it. Japan's "day of reckoning" already came: what they've been in for the last 25+ years is the "post-reckoning" of ZIRP, low growth and low inflation. If the Chinese debt bubble explodes, it's not like the country is going to collapse, the most common prediction is that they'll become "Japan 2.0" where the country is functio…

Yeah, it's more like people have been waiting for decades for a day of reckoning for Japan in the sense that the country is still very productive in many senses but has yet to escape its extremely long-term recession. Japan has been punished enough. It's quite tragic.

Punished? Late stage first world economies with structural issues (an aging population, enourmous entitlement obligations) can escape recessions (stagnation, really) no more than humans can escape the heat death of the universe.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#46
post #37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. My problem with these kind of analysis is that it pretty much only looks at things from a financial perspective thinking it's the be-all-end all. However, on first level principles, money is simply an abstraction; it's a medium for trading your services for other people's services. And if you become more efficient, you can buy more services with the same amount of…

> However, on first level principles, money is simply an abstraction; it's a medium for trading your services for other people's services. And if you become more efficient, you can buy more services with the same amount of effort and vice versa. The root cause of this increase in efficiency is technology. Pettis does discuss this at length.

Can you elaborate?

From the article, Pettis assumes the following is true:

  1) China has overinvested in infrastructure and manufacturing capacity to such an extent 
  that in the aggregate the cost of additional 
  public sector investment exceeds the present 
  value of future increases in productivity generated by 
  the investment
and

  2) China's long-term sustainable growth rate is substantially below the economy's current GDP growth target
Why does he make these assumptions without also analyzing the technology improvement aspect? I don't see anything about that in this article.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#47

Ok, this is probably a silly question, but who holds all the debt now? The avg US citizen would say China holds much of the US debt, but now it sounds like China is borrowing their way into trouble too... it's not any of these third world countries... who is it?

it's debt, all the way down :p

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#48
post #34

I think the best model to understand this is Michael Pettis's balance sheet analysis. He covers it extensively, but here's his latest digest of the model: http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/66221 It really makes clear how stark the choices are for China. The debt binge of the last ~10 years has masked the flattening out of productive investment, and there will need to be a reckoning. Hopefully it's a…

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. My problem with these kind of analysis is that it pretty much only looks at things from a financial perspective thinking it's the be-all-end all. However, on first level principles, money is simply an abstraction; it's a medium for trading your services for other people's services. And if you become more efficient, you can buy more services with the same amount of…

Similarly, if you use Western standards to measure economic metrics of China, everything looks weird.

China is still pretty much a planned economy, where the government is in control of major state-owned corporations. I wouldn't worry too much about the debts that they owe to the state.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#49

Ok, this is probably a silly question, but who holds all the debt now? The avg US citizen would say China holds much of the US debt, but now it sounds like China is borrowing their way into trouble too... it's not any of these third world countries... who is it?

I forgot where I read that, but Bernanke said that most of their debt is internal, so not as bad a problem as it sounds.

Re: China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says

#50

Ok, this is probably a silly question, but who holds all the debt now? The avg US citizen would say China holds much of the US debt, but now it sounds like China is borrowing their way into trouble too... it's not any of these third world countries... who is it?

US government borrows money from the Fed. People (China) also buy Treasury bonds, but I think this is much smaller than the debt we owe ourselves.

Someone else can chime in with more depth, but basically the US government has been good about not borrowing too much from itself. I just hope we can stay rational as a country and this continues.

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