Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you know them well enough that they understand that you're joking, then it's probably okay. If you're not sure, then don't. I do have female friends at the office who might find that funny, but only because we know each other and we give each other as good as we get. The difference is that we are friends not just colleagues, which is on a different level, interpersonally.
I feel like I would prefer a more professional work environment, even if it's less funny.
At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
201–210 of 234 posts
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like I would prefer a more professional work environment, even if it's less funny.
Unfortunately, the problem with "professional" relationships is that they're not very good at fulfilling the social needs of humans. It's practical to keep things professional in order to avoid drama, but when you work all day and work is the main place you get to interact with other people, it can get a bit depressing. And this is partially the reason why things like "company culture" and "culture-fit" come about, b…
Professionalism is what allows you to work together despite being very different people with different interests and personalities.
Fun workplaces tend to discriminate against those who are different on personal level regardless of their actual skills and contributions.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are so many other/better ways to question someone's taste, even in jest. This is also why I originally said it depends on the context. You can say it to a work buddy who you hang out with after hours. You can't say it to someone from another team who you don't know very well. Use your head.
better according to who? If you retreat when pushed, they'll just keep pushing. The issue here isn't whether you offend someone, it's who should be sided with when it goes to HR.
If she pushes back and humiliates you back, would you be cool with it?
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
It all depends on the context. But yes, we all have to be really careful what we say. Not for fear of being shamed -- for fear of offending someone! Calling someone a "princess" for liking salads could easily be taken as an offense, gender aside. It's the same reason you don't just go around talking politics in the officf. Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace.
How do you ever criticize somebody in such a friendly office? I suppose the need just never arises, because HR only hires flawless, swell people to begin with? So that if ever somebody takes a disliking to somebody else, it must be because of racism or sexism?
It is easier to criticize people if you did not picked up on them nor mocked nor humiliated them previously. Because a.) they will have more trust to what you say b.) they will not assume you are not just humiliating them again c.) they will not be predispose to see you as a jerk.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately, the problem with "professional" relationships is that they're not very good at fulfilling the social needs of humans. It's practical to keep things professional in order to avoid drama, but when you work all day and work is the main place you get to interact with other people, it can get a bit depressing. And this is partially the reason why things like "company culture" and "culture-fit" come about, b…
Then again, workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human. People who are fun to socialize with and people who are pleasant to work with are very different people. One can be fun and pleasant friend while not so reliable college. Professionalism is what allows you to work together despite being very different people with different interests and personalities. Fun workplaces tend to discriminate again…
It's not, but when it takes up the majority of your waking life at ~60-80hrs/wk, it's not an unreasonable expectation, especially for the mental well-being of the workers. And so long as the trend continues towards longer work hours, there really doesn't seem to be much of a humane way to deal with that added stress otherwise, despite all the obvious drawbacks you mentioned.
The ideal of course, would be to shorten the workday. Unfortunately, inertia seems to be working very much against that possible solution.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then again, workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human. People who are fun to socialize with and people who are pleasant to work with are very different people. One can be fun and pleasant friend while not so reliable college. Professionalism is what allows you to work together despite being very different people with different interests and personalities. Fun workplaces tend to discriminate again…
> workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human It's not, but when it takes up the majority of your waking life at ~60-80hrs/wk, it's not an unreasonable expectation, especially for the mental well-being of the workers. And so long as the trend continues towards longer work hours, there really doesn't seem to be much of a humane way to deal with that added stress otherwise, despite all the obvious dr…
Yes, my observation is the same - the people who spend 60-80hrs at work do take all their socialization into workplace. Meaning they waste time of people who want to work at work and then go home - either because of kids or because of aging relative or because of anything else including hobbies.
The above is one more reason to avoid fun cultural workplaces. They tend to want all of you, not just your work.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm also a Googler. Unlike you, I'm forced to comment anonymously, using a throwaway I just created using Tor. Why? Because I'm a member of one of the "privileged" groups that many think make up too great a portion of Google's employee base, and because some people (especially the ones graduating from college these days) think I'm an oppressor just because of my race and gender. Nevertheless, I need to pipe up and ex…
I'm truly sorry you feel this way. I'm another white man who works at Google. I don't feel this way. You see me here commenting using a username that's easily traceable to my real identity. So we are reacting to a similar situation quite differently. What's the difference between us? I don't know. I also think that your having this feeling is not WAI -- Google has been pretty clear that they want everyone to feel psy…
Discussion that I've seen around microaggressions seems to land on the idea that, much like sexual harassment, one can be guilty without intent or awareness. This is a difficult to balance situation because, on the one hand, you have the fact that we as white men do not know what it feels like to be "othered" or harassed every day of your life, thus making our own judgment of what constitutes fair and unfair treatment somewhat skewed. On the other hand, this can lead to the infliction of the "perpetrator" status in situations that, to my honest attempt to calmly and thoughtfully analyze the circumstances, grant too much power to the accuser.
Prior to the current email list under discussion, there was a web app internally for tracking microaggressions. I remember reading it and being horrified at the treatment that non-white people in general, and women in particular, endured - story after story of degradation, insults and bullying. Referring to these actions as "micro" aggressions was comically understating their magnitude. However, I did see one or two stories that I thought were an extremely uncharitable interpretation of a normal, everyday situation. I vividly recall one - let me attempt to retell that story here: "One day I was waiting for the bus to ${SOME_DESTINATION}. The bus stop was unusually busy, lots of people were around. Somebody said out loud 'Wow, looks like everybody is going to ${SOME_DESTINATION} today'. This comment was aimed at me because I was not white."
In the above scenario, I acknowledge the possibility that the speaker was aiming a negative comment at the reporter...but surely it is also possible that a non-biased person would make that comment innocently, perhaps even without knowledge that the non-white person were present? The reason I am afraid is that I can imagine myself making an innocent comment like that, bereft of any bias (implicit or otherwise), and I am afraid of what the consequences might be. Having a discussion about the comment would be fine, but what if I were to be brought in front of HR and have it formally recorded in my employee file? What if I received explicit disciplinary action? Could I be fired in circumstances like this?
As I've said, I recognize the legitimacy of the vast, vast majority of these grievances as well as the need to share them. What scares me is the absolutes with which they are spoken about, in that the accusation of having committed a microaggression or act of bias always means the accused is guilty. Without acknowledgement that communication is challenging and an innocent comment can be interpreted uncharitably, I am afraid of the potential consequences.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't matter that the complaints are anonymous. The ultimate end result of this produces anxiety, even if action is taken. It is passive violence on a mass scale instead of healing occurring in one place. People should not want every fracture or trespass humming in the background to remind us. We should be moving on, dedicating our focus on being better people, achieving new heights, real things that progress us…
You seem to be confused. Written words are not violence.
There are many studies that also prove emotional trauma and conflict also produce responses similar to physical pain in the brain.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that first line is true, most adults are able to be disagreeable without using a slur, such as us. So no, I would say sexism wouldn't exist if people could disagree on merits of discussion instead of any insults (which, by nature of personal attack, immediately invokes all *isms of the victim). Second, there's a huge difference between insulting someone because of their perceived character ("asshole") w…
> most adults are able to be disagreeable without using a slur, such as us The whole point of an insult is to get the other side angry, not necessarily for it to have roots in reality. I do agree that it's not a good way to have an argument. If I want to insult you I'll look at what hurts you the most. Here is something that's not being called out as racist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5ulvcqaiM8 > I would say s…
Is it acceptable to be openly racist? Yes, in certain parts of America. My grandparents' county courthouse had a KKK rally to celebrate census results showing no minorities lived there. This was early 2000s.
Also, I'm not going to keep discussing this with you mich further as all your responses are not conveying a genuine desire to discuss and consider arguments you disagree with, which is frankly a waste of both our time.
Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints
#210I can see this getting out of hand quickly. Humans have a tendency to amplify anxiety of local, improbable events. This is essentially a weapon that can quickly impact morale and elevate disruptive conversations that will become far removed from the situation with too many participants. I'd have optin, in-person support groups where nothing leaves the room and it is limited in size. Sometimes spreading a problem acro…