Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google kinda-sorta did a study there, but the "study" was fundamentally flawed. They didn't look at people who didn't get hired (duh). So the most they could say is that once people passed the (very high, risk averse) bar, how much better they did beyond that didn't have a strong enough correlation with job performance to come out in a small-ish number of data points. To me, it's pretty clear that it basically works.…
Virtually every top tech company has been formed with these practices Just to be clear, does "top tech company" mean simply "large tech company?
What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
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Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#42I stopped reading at this point.
How arrogant to expect you to gift your unpaid free time for the privilege of working there.
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I would rather make more money in a stupid corporate job than working on more aggressive ways of making people to click on ads. Could you name a few "stupid corporate jobs" that pay better than Google or Facebook (200k - 300k for a senior engineer) ?
Are you sure the majority of senior engineers earns 200 - 300k ?
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#44Where it comes to taking a realistic look at what it takes to be hired at google and other top tech companies, I think you give great practical advice. I've recommended your book and blog to a lot of people.
Here's a summary of something I've posted elsewhere on HN, and I'd be interested in your angle.
It goes, essentially, like this. Technical interviews are, for all practical purposes, difficult oral whiteboard exams. Lots of professions and academic programs involve some kind of exam
Here's my objection to it - software tech interviews are essentially exams taken with little to none of the courtesies often extended to exam takers in other areas. I'm hand waiving a little here, but I do think that there is a kind of bill of rights that evolved between people who give important entrance or exit exams, and the people who take them.
For example, in the world of law, you (generally) must take the LSAT, and a lot is riding on this test. However, you get to see and review old tests. You have assurances that the test will be consistent across other candidates. You get a copy of the test you have taken, which will eventually become available to the public. You eventually get to know what your score is, and why.
On your way out, you take the bar exam. People study a very long time for this, and many consider it to be one of the more stressful events of their life. But again, there is information about who is grading it, what it contains, what your score is, and why. And lastly, it leads to a permanent, lasting credential respected in the industry.
This is just one example, but they often come up in other areas. My opinion is that one of the reasons we have technical exam/interviews is that our industry lacks a common and respected credential and exam.
I'm not necessarily arguing that there should be one, but keep in mind how stressful and how much prep these exams do take. An interview at google can take place over several days, and may involve relatively grueling technical tests, all at a whiteboard, where people worry about freezing up.
You don't get to know who is testing you, what their credentials are, and whether they are doing this consistently and fairly. You aren't even allowed to discuss the questions - you're typically under a nondisclosure agreement! You don't get to know how you did - my understanding is that google has numerical scores and screen captures of what I wrote on the whiteboard, but I'm not allowed to see them or know what they are. I understand much of this is motivated by fear or lawsuits, but all we really get, after waiting, is a "we've decided not to pursue your application further at this point". And if you do pass, it's known only to that company - if you interview elsewhere, you can't take these results with you. You have to start over again.
I really do think it's just too opaque, and the secrecy is just too conducive to abuse and bias. And keep in mind, this is in an industry/job category that both complains about a shortage of candidates and is not impressive where it comes to diversity in many job categories. Could the opacity and capriciousness of exams be playing a role in this?
Again, I'm not against exams like the ones google does at the whiteboard, I see the value. But I think that the conditions under which we take these exams are a problem.
If you're willing to offer your thoughts and take on this, I'd be interested in hearing them. Thanks!
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> You should know what a binary search tree. You probably don't need to know the specifics of how to balance one. Fine. I know this. Will this give me a job? No >> Yes, I understand that interview prep might interfere with other obligations. You don't have to study. But it'll help you. I'm not sure what you expect here. Do you want companies to hire based on how smoothly you're able to bullshit about what you can cl…
>> >> You should know what a binary search tree. You probably don't need to know the specifics of how to balance one. >> Fine. I know this. Will this give me a job? No No, it's not about knowledge. The knowledge is needed. But the real focus of the interview is to tackle a new question. >> I want to be hired for the skills I'm bringing in and not for my ability to solve toy problems on a whiteboard. The ability to se…
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#46Oh we all value diversity so so much. Just fucking all dress alike, it's our culture, no diversity here. Hypocrisy.
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#47I do not go home and code after work. I have plenty of hobbies that all pertain to the outdoors (I call it balance). This quote stuck out: "I once worked with a candidate at Google for a product manager role. During the interview, he started talking about how he kept chickens at his house. He was extremely passionate about building a door for the coop that opened and closed automatically to control the chickens’ move…
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you do not get an offer even though you did well on technical questions(verified your answers online). Should you reapply? Why? Personally I think it's the sign of cultural fit issue so they unlikely will like you just because you reapply.
When people don't get an offer after a technical interview, it's typically about technical skills. Even if they think they did well because they verified their answers online. Often, although their answers were eventually correct, it took them too long to get there which the interviewer perceived as weak problem solving skills.
Does CtCI publish those times for its problems? How would I know I'm too slow to solve a kind of problem before interviewing?
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you do not get an offer even though you did well on technical questions(verified your answers online). Should you reapply? Why? Personally I think it's the sign of cultural fit issue so they unlikely will like you just because you reapply.
When people don't get an offer after a technical interview, it's typically about technical skills. Even if they think they did well because they verified their answers online. Often, although their answers were eventually correct, it took them too long to get there which the interviewer perceived as weak problem solving skills.
Re: What I've learned from 100s of interviews with candidates at top tech companies
#50The advice about not giving up on the question is a key point here. In a previous startup I would ask a single question that would take 30+ minutes to work through with no expectations that the candidate would ever get the answer. All I cared about was if you could break down the issues and move from one set to the next in trying to narrow down the issue. I cared deeply about how you thought, not what you knew. As pe…
The major problem with this approach (unless you are very vocal about the process up front, but still even then I see it as problematic) is it flies in the face of most education at all levels, at least as practiced in the USA. This is fundamentally more an issue with the way we scale teaching up to so many students than the way interviews are handled, but it still ends up being a huge problem.
People are expected to spend 20-ish-plus-something years learning and being tested in a pass/fail know-it-or-you-don't manner, and then are thrown into an interview environment that is entirely different.
It isn't surprising that a lot of people who would be perfectly capable of doing the work get completely hung up on the fact that they are wading through the muck of topics they don't fully understand in this environment that otherwise feels so very much like a school test of knowledge... especially when you throw in the types of social awkwardness and fear of public failure that are relatively common among engineers.