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NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

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Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#121

Post by Retric »

scaryspooky wrote: post #113
captainmuon wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a revolution. I'm only half joking. I think we can't solve these problems within the current political and economical and system. We have to found a new radical political movement. A lot of the problems we face: the crisis of representational democracy, populism, unemployment, xenophobia, the surveillance state, terrorism, ... cannot be solved individually, but I believe must be fixed simultaneously. We got to…

> the crisis of representational democracy This is only a crisis if you're the loser, though, which seems a bit like sour grapes.

The problem is not specifically Trump or even throwing out the filibuster in the senate. It's the kind of highly targeted gerrymandering and ad hock messaging based around new technology. Combined with doubts that votes are even being counted that's corrosive to the very idea of democracy.

Of course Obama was going to cause a backlash, just like Bush did and Trump will. But, we have gotten to the point where 'power' and 'the will of the people' have got little to do with each other. And that's not a stable path long term.

EX: We don't talk about it, but several million Americans don't get representation in the house or senate. Sure, that's the way the system is built, but frankly that's not a good enough reason on it's own.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#122

Post by mason240 »

awqrre wrote: post #55

I think that the privacy issue will get worst quicker under Trump, which is why I voted for him. I think that it is required, for it to get better, because people don't care enough yet.

One of President Obama's last acts was to expand and entrench mass surveillance by the Federal government.

>New rules issued by the Obama administration under Executive Order 12333 will let the NSA—which collects information under that authority with little oversight, transparency, or concern for privacy—share the raw streams of communications it intercepts directly with agencies including the FBI, the DEA, and the Department of Homeland Security, according to a report today by the New York Times.

This in direct conflict with his earlier promise to do the opposite.

>On January 17, 2014, President Obama gave a public address on mass surveillance. Obama promised increased restrictions on data collection of American citizens, which would include the requirement of court approval for searches of telephone records. In addition, Obama called for increased oversight and admitted the dangers NSA surveillance posed to civil liberties.

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/01/obama-expands-surveill...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_on_mass_surveilla...

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#123

Post by coldtea »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #56
coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people care enough, they can bring down governments... And in much worse conditions...

Yeah, well. They can because of the "much worse conditions". If you push people hard enough so they aren't fulfilling the lowest level of Maslow's pyramid, you'll get your bloody revolution. NSA issues is way too abstract for that.

>Yeah, well. They can because of the "much worse conditions". If you push people hard enough so they aren't fulfilling the lowest level of Maslow's pyramid, you'll get your bloody revolution.

I'll have to disagree with that. People often stay subservient when in dire conditions, but also have been known start a revolution for mild (or stronger) discomforts. Mankind is not driven by "bread" that predictably.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#124

Post by jankedeen »

endymi0n wrote: post #11

I think the most dangerous thing is that what Snowden predicted actually happened by now. After all the revelations, nobody is interested anymore. There's this general fatigue and powerlessness that leads to a feeling of "well, yeah, everbody knows by now... what's the news here?" - even for me as a security expert and privacy proponent. The real danger is nobody cares anymore, as this enables all further constitutio…

It's not that nobody is interested anymore. It is that the onus is on regular citizens to protect themselves. Once you have an understanding of the magnitude of the privacy problem and see what you would have to do to protect yourself you tend to tip your hat to the empowered opposition and industry partners and realize,in the venerable argot of our time: you lost the game.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#125

Post by coldtea »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #54
coldtea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real danger is nobody cares anymore, as this enables all further constitution violations and hollowing of citizen protection worldwide. The upside is that a society that doesn't care, eventually gets what it deserves.

I don't see this as an upside. You can't really blame people for that - this is a systemic issue, and it was predicted it will happen. People, in aggregate, don't respond to abstract problems like that by any form of prolonged care.

>You can't really blame people for that - this is a systemic issue, and it was predicted it will happen. People, in aggregate, don't respond to abstract problems like that by any form of prolonged care.

They should, and I can blame them for that. That's the duty of the citizen. Not recognizing the issue at all is not an excuse.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#126

Post by xadhominemx »

roywiggins wrote: post #66
awqrre wrote: post #55

I think that the privacy issue will get worst quicker under Trump, which is why I voted for him. I think that it is required, for it to get better, because people don't care enough yet.

When has accelerationism ever worked before?

I think for a lot of relatively wealthy, straight, white people there's not a lot of downside to 4 or 8 years of Trump, which led to some pretty awful accelerationism risk calculus.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#127

Post by dude01 »

Putting on my marketing hat -- protecting privacy sure has lousy marketing. Privacy is so abstract and sounds passive.

Why don't people talk about how upcoming politicians can be blackmailed by having this surveillance info lying around? Or our current politicians, who vote and decide on the powers granted the NSA, are easily blackmail-able with this surveillance info?

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#128

Post by cryoshon »

captainmuon wrote: post #97
lmm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do I do, as someone who cares? No, seriously. Should I throw a bit more money at the EFF? Start my own political party, or enter an existing one and try to steer it in my direction? Try to get employed by one of these organizations and then promote a better understanding of their mission internally? Move to another country where people care more (which?) Identifying the problem is a good first step, but what can…

Start a revolution. I'm only half joking. I think we can't solve these problems within the current political and economical and system. We have to found a new radical political movement. A lot of the problems we face: the crisis of representational democracy, populism, unemployment, xenophobia, the surveillance state, terrorism, ... cannot be solved individually, but I believe must be fixed simultaneously. We got to…

>we won't get more freedom without a major rewrite or at least refactoring of society...

correct you are. our problems are too intertwined with the current political system to be solved by them. without exception.

there's no point in waiting for the perfect moment, because it won't ever come. our best bet is to make use of the utter chaos the current administration is causing as an excuse for destroying our moribund institutions and remolding them into something fresh and more useful.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#129

Post by braveo »

spaceribs wrote: post #101
mirimir wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And privacy does give you more options. But be careful not to be too obvious about it, because that makes you a target.

> But be careful not to be too obvious about it, because that makes you a target. Good. It's probably better that a young curmudgeonly asshole like myself that has zero respect for unquestioned authority go through the years long process of bringing a clear case of 4th and 5th amendment violations through to the supreme court. I personally would rather rot in jail in contempt if it meant that these questions of perso…

No you wouldn't, that's internet badassery coupled with youth at work.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#130

Post by scaryspooky »

Retric wrote: post #121
scaryspooky wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the crisis of representational democracy This is only a crisis if you're the loser, though, which seems a bit like sour grapes.

The problem is not specifically Trump or even throwing out the filibuster in the senate. It's the kind of highly targeted gerrymandering and ad hock messaging based around new technology. Combined with doubts that votes are even being counted that's corrosive to the very idea of democracy. Of course Obama was going to cause a backlash, just like Bush did and Trump will. But, we have gotten to the point where 'power'…

The US was not designed as a direct democracy, though. Bemoaning the design only when 'your side' loses is a problem that should be relegated to young children. I haven't voted for the winner for quite a few elections now but I don't think throwing out the entire system is the right answer because I didn't get my way.

If you want to start movements in individual states changing the first past the post system, I think that's a logical first step. Colorado recently changed their primary system to be more open, so we will see what that impact has on their elections soon. But what I see is people wanting to throw out the entire system and start over, which is the rhetoric that got Trump elected in the first place.

I assume by 'several million Americans' you're talking about the territories and Washington DC. The territories consistently vote to keep themselves territories, so they choose to remain "unrepresented" in Congress. I don't think letting DC have a vote in Congress will help diminish the 'power' and 'will of the people' problem you are concerned about.

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