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What was Syria like before the war

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Re: What was Syria like before the war

#51

Post by matt4077 »

mafribe wrote: post #43
netsharc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I have followed it that closely, but of course it's not a black vs white conflict, more like several factions wanting to win power/suppress their enemies. I think it started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad that turned violent when his army started shooting. The "rebels" picked up arms and probably brutally kills pro-government soldiers/citizens, so they are not saints either. Meanwhile ISIS take…

started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad It's unlikely that this was spontaneous, and most likely the first public result of a planned and well-funded regime-change operation.

Yeah, never in the history of mankind has anyone protested without being paid by George Soros, right?

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#52

Post by jansho »

mafribe wrote: post #46
ido wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. The question is then, what would have been a better solution? Surely as long as Assad was ruling they were stuck (at best) at a local maximum and would have never transitioned to a free democracy without overthrowing the current government.

as long as Assad was ruling Assad's secular dictatorship is massively preferable to ISIS rule, especially to the 25% of the Syrian population that are non-Sunni.

Sigh, it seems so surreal now that the Arab Spring was once cheered on by the whole world.

Edit: word

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#53

Post by mafribe »

matt4077 wrote: post #51
mafribe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad It's unlikely that this was spontaneous, and most likely the first public result of a planned and well-funded regime-change operation.

Yeah, never in the history of mankind has anyone protested without being paid by George Soros, right?

I'm not sure in what sense your answer is a constructive contribution.

There is a long history of engineering 'grassroots movements' toward overthrowing governments. All powers have been engaging in this practise, and you can find how-to manuals -- I recommend reading some, it's highly enlightening. For example many of the de-colonialisation movements in the second part of the 20th century were actively run by the Soviet Union, leading to such absurdities as Cabo Verde becoming an independent state.

Clearly various powers had strategic interests in destabilisation of Assad. [1] is an interesting document in this direction.

[1] https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#54

Post by roadbeats »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #50
roadbeats wrote: post #38

The UN is not objective. They keep repeating the "peaceful protests" thing, but what sort of peaceful protests would aim to take down the president by force ? I'm not an Assad supporter but come on, we saw how that peaceful protests ended up in Libya; France was doing air strike to stop the Libya government to interrupt the protests, people killed their former leader with their bare hands. The only peaceful end durin…

The protests probably started organically, the neighbouring Arab Springs seemed successful at the time and Syria was dealing with a long drought, food being one of the primary causes of major protest. Various Sunni generals then defected, probably figuring it would end quickly and they would be primed for chief roles in the new government. al-Assad didn't step down though, and outside help started pouring in from bot…

I was not talking about Clinton :) Political actors are just actors, we need to look at who are behind them. She got most of her funding from George Soros, also let him made speech in her campaign meetings about how Soros wants to take down authoritarian regimes in middle east without military invasion, in 2008. At that time, Soros was offering a model that worked in Ukraine. And that model was used in Arab Spring.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#55

Post by roadbeats »

matt4077 wrote: post #48
roadbeats wrote: post #38

The UN is not objective. They keep repeating the "peaceful protests" thing, but what sort of peaceful protests would aim to take down the president by force ? I'm not an Assad supporter but come on, we saw how that peaceful protests ended up in Libya; France was doing air strike to stop the Libya government to interrupt the protests, people killed their former leader with their bare hands. The only peaceful end durin…

What a load of conspiracy-bullshit: >If you're looking for truth, don't expect these corrupt organizations to tell you, do some research. Here's the data, from the horses' mouth: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php . UNHCR runs accommodation for half a million refugees. More importantly, they have changed tactics in the last decades, and are trying to get refugees to live among the normal population, in…

I follow UNCHR's budget, reports and their activities since 2013, also met a lot of people working for both UNCHR and UN. Discussing this issue with a hysterical internet troll would be an offend.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#56

Post by boomboomsubban »

candiodari wrote: post #5
RandVal30141 wrote: post #4

"I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. " The death of Hamza Khateeb[1] comes to mind. Political and civil unrest was already underway, but the open violence against civilians including children sent Syria down a path. The government butchered that child among others caught for demonstrations or showing dissent. "The attitude of the government against the people of Syria…

> The death of Hamza Khateeb Ok, but how do you go from that to islamic state ? And frankly, how does a protest like that get organised in the first place by the locals ? > regular chemical weapons attacks by the regime Maybe I'm misinformed, but I seem to only recall that the government was accused of doing this once. This is neither regular, nor was it the cause of the conflict.

>Ok, but how do you go from that to islamic state ?

Through two years of civil war, causing unrest, instability, and dissatisfaction with both sides of the conflict. Add in the fighters who had been in the same situation for the past decade in neighboring Iraq, and you end up with a large group of armed people that want nothing to do with Russia or the US.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#57

Post by mercer »

ido wrote: post #31
temp_12345 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this mirrors my impression. It was unequivocally a controlled society : one simply didn't speak about the regime in anything less than absolutely glowing terms. The threat of the secret police was persistent. As far as the people go, your odds of being hustled in Syria were pretty high (but not any worse than, say, Thailand) - other than that I totally agree wrt the westernization and general pleasantness. I do…

I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. The question is then, what would have been a better solution? Surely as long as Assad was ruling they were stuck (at best) at a local maximum and would have never transitioned to a free democracy without overthrowing the current government.

I suppose this kind of question can only be answered in hindsight. If indeed there is a transition to a free, stable democracy, I suppose we could argue that what happened was ultimately worth it. But I don't know if such a thing is likely to happen.

It seems quite possible to me that all this turmoil will lead to another local maximum that isn't much better, and perhaps even worse, than the previous one.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#58

Post by shaki-dora »

mafribe wrote: post #53
matt4077 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, never in the history of mankind has anyone protested without being paid by George Soros, right?

I'm not sure in what sense your answer is a constructive contribution. There is a long history of engineering 'grassroots movements' toward overthrowing governments. All powers have been engaging in this practise, and you can find how-to manuals -- I recommend reading some, it's highly enlightening. For example many of the de-colonialisation movements in the second part of the 20th century were actively run by the So…

That document doesn't prove anything. It's clearly an email send to Clinton, so it doesn't reflect her views any more than whatever spam she got. Plus there's actually nothing nefarious in there. Nobody is disputing that the US government's position is and has always been that Assad needs to go.

If it were written with more than public knowledge, it would actually proof that the US and Clinton did not organise any sorts of fake-grassroots protests, considering the document is arguing for US engagement against Assad a full year after the war started,

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#59

Post by mpfundstein »

roadbeats wrote: post #38

The UN is not objective. They keep repeating the "peaceful protests" thing, but what sort of peaceful protests would aim to take down the president by force ? I'm not an Assad supporter but come on, we saw how that peaceful protests ended up in Libya; France was doing air strike to stop the Libya government to interrupt the protests, people killed their former leader with their bare hands. The only peaceful end durin…

can you please write more about this and especially about your personal experiences? or provide some links so that we can do our own research. but i wouldnt even know where to start....

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#60

Post by mafribe »

shaki-dora wrote: post #58
mafribe wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure in what sense your answer is a constructive contribution. There is a long history of engineering 'grassroots movements' toward overthrowing governments. All powers have been engaging in this practise, and you can find how-to manuals -- I recommend reading some, it's highly enlightening. For example many of the de-colonialisation movements in the second part of the 20th century were actively run by the So…

That document doesn't prove anything. It's clearly an email send to Clinton, so it doesn't reflect her views any more than whatever spam she got. Plus there's actually nothing nefarious in there. Nobody is disputing that the US government's position is and has always been that Assad needs to go. If it were written with more than public knowledge, it would actually proof that the US and Clinton did not organise any so…

   doesn't prove anything.
The world of regime change isn't one where things are "proved". The Wikileaks mail I cited gives evidence, plausibility. That's the best we can hope for.

Your counterevidence is not going to be a proof in ZFC set theory either ...

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