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Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

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Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#361

Post by drewg123 »

photojosh wrote: post #355
drewg123 wrote: post #305

I met my wife because she was stuck in VI. I was a unix sysadmin in the early 90s, and she was a grad student. She came to me for help (like most of the 1st years did) because she couldn't get out of vi. However, to be fair, this was not her fault per-say. She actually knew how to use vi, but just couldn't find the ESC key. Does anybody remember the DEC keyboards where there was no traditional ESC key, but it was F11…

Best meeting story ever. I met my wife in a physics lecture, and she credits me with her sticking with engineering, but your tale is better. Important question: did she end up learning vi after that?

She already knew vi. Probably better than I did, as she'd done her undergrad at MIT, and already knew unix.

But she just didn't know that F11 was ESC on those DEC keyboards. It was labelled and all, but it was nowhere near where ESC is normally on a keyboard.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#362

Post by Houshalter »

flukus wrote: post #354
Houshalter wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just hate programs that change patterns that are standard everywhere else. E.g. 99% of software uses control+c and control+v to do copy and pasting, so of course software that maps it to something totally different is going to be very frustrating. The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. Discoverability is another problem. You can have weird keyboard commands, but make it possible to find them wit…

> The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. How do you quit man? How do you quit less? 'q' to quit is pretty standard in the TUI world.

I tried it and typing q does not seem to exit the program. Nothing I tried worked and I had to exit the whole terminal.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#364

Post by Certhas »

throwaway7645 wrote: post #341
srcmap wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using vi/vim lets one enter a secret dark corner of programmer society. Memorize vi keystrokes is knowing the secret handshakes. Able to Exit vim is finding the door to enlightenment. If vi comes with an easy "back" button like all browsers, no-one will learn it. One needs to be trapped inside for a while to feel the power of the dark side.

Is ":q!" really that crazy after 2 secs with Google?

Yes it is, if you are coming from a GUI life, start using the shell for the first time, and suddenly get thrown into some unnamed editor by git. :P

It breaks about every convention on editors and discoverability that you're used to.

Start GNU nano. It puts me in a position where typing edits the file I opened. It shows me the name of the program. It shows some keyboard shortcuts for interacting with the program. (Though for beginners the ^X syntax isn't obvious either).

Vim, doesn't give me any of that. I infrequently use vim and I still tend to open a file and start typing without hitting i first, because it's behaviour that's inconsistent with every single other editor I have ever used.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#365

Post by Animats »

UX, the early days.

I once typed "EDIT" to Interlisp when in the wrong mode, and Warren Teitelman's "Do What I mean" system printed "=EXIT" and exited the program without saving. DWIM was tuned rather closely to Warren's personal typing errors.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#366

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

Houshalter wrote: post #301
blhack wrote: post #171

I spent almost 10 years doing IT for a company whose backend was based entirely on as/400. If you've ever used a system like that, I'm sure you know where this is going... The console's that the front-desk or clerical users used every day had a steep learning curve. It was something that you would definitely not be able to walk up to and just intuit. However , once you figured it out, there is never going to be a fas…

I just hate programs that change patterns that are standard everywhere else. E.g. 99% of software uses control+c and control+v to do copy and pasting, so of course software that maps it to something totally different is going to be very frustrating. The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. Discoverability is another problem. You can have weird keyboard commands, but make it possible to find them wit…

Vi predates the Ctrl+C.X.V convention. Shame on all those Windows apps for not using the Esc key properly.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#367

Post by photojosh »

boxfire wrote: post #334
Houshalter wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm well aware of that and the historical reasons that it's the case. I'm just using it as an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users.

^C as copy is an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users. Its THE canonical example in fact.

^C is SIGINT. ⌘C is copy.

I blame Microsoft.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#368

Post by [deleted] »

chpmrc wrote: post #316
drewg123 wrote: post #305

I met my wife because she was stuck in VI. I was a unix sysadmin in the early 90s, and she was a grad student. She came to me for help (like most of the 1st years did) because she couldn't get out of vi. However, to be fair, this was not her fault per-say. She actually knew how to use vi, but just couldn't find the ESC key. Does anybody remember the DEC keyboards where there was no traditional ESC key, but it was F11…

THIS is the "How I met your mother" we want.

[deleted]

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#369

Post by gnaritas »

flukus wrote: post #357
gnaritas wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that just because something has a steep learning curve, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad design. It does if the app is aimed at companies with high turnover where said learning curve poses a continual problem for users.

If there is high turn over then the length of the learning curve is more important than the shape of it. Let's say there are two apps each with an employee starting, one requires two full days of training to be 90% proficient, the other allows for an instant start with a more gradual learning curve. After 30 days of employment the first has spent 28 days at 90% efficiency, the other has had 7 days at 60% efficiency,…

Absolutely true.

Re: Helping a Million Developers Exit Vim

#370

Post by ecshafer »

Houshalter wrote: post #362
flukus wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. How do you quit man? How do you quit less? 'q' to quit is pretty standard in the TUI world.

I tried it and typing q does not seem to exit the program. Nothing I tried worked and I had to exit the whole terminal.

You have to type :q to quit. : Is the command mode.
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