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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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171–180 of 234 posts

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#171

Post by jlebar »

metaphorm wrote: post #159
jlebar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> implementing a system that facilitates false accusations does significant harm and does not remedy the real actual problem of under-reporting to legal authorities. This system does not facilitate accusations of any kind, because it is anonymous to all parties involved. I've repeated this a number of times, but people are not hearing it. This is exactly my point, that people here are fixating on the non-problem of f…

> This system does not facilitate accusations of any kind, because it is anonymous to all parties involved. I find considerable irony in this assertion considering we're talking about Google here. If any organization should know about the emptiness of promises of anonymity it's Google. > Nobody is being publicly accused of anything, as has been said multiple times in this thread. they are, actually. they're being acc…

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people accused of harassment.

I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of women and minorities in tech, who are disproportionately the victims of harassment.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#172

Post by jlebar »

throwgoog452 wrote: post #116
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

I'm also a Googler. Unlike you, I'm forced to comment anonymously, using a throwaway I just created using Tor. Why? Because I'm a member of one of the "privileged" groups that many think make up too great a portion of Google's employee base, and because some people (especially the ones graduating from college these days) think I'm an oppressor just because of my race and gender. Nevertheless, I need to pipe up and ex…

I'm truly sorry you feel this way.

I'm another white man who works at Google. I don't feel this way. You see me here commenting using a username that's easily traceable to my real identity. So we are reacting to a similar situation quite differently. What's the difference between us? I don't know.

I also think that your having this feeling is not WAI -- Google has been pretty clear that they want everyone to feel psychologically safe at work.

Ultimately what you have is a feeling -- it's not a fact, or even an opinion. I can't argue you out of it. But feel free to reach out to me IRL if you want to talk about it. I am easy to find.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#173

Post by [deleted] »

throwgoog452 wrote: post #116
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

I'm also a Googler. Unlike you, I'm forced to comment anonymously, using a throwaway I just created using Tor. Why? Because I'm a member of one of the "privileged" groups that many think make up too great a portion of Google's employee base, and because some people (especially the ones graduating from college these days) think I'm an oppressor just because of my race and gender. Nevertheless, I need to pipe up and ex…

[deleted]

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#174

Post by anothercomment »

cjslep wrote: post #170
anothercomment wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just call people what the suppose annoys them most. That is why they call women cunts and men gay or sexist or whatever. Would you say sexism is only over when men are being called cunts and bitches? Actually it seems to me Nigger is a lot softer than Hitler. It basically means "black person I don't like because they are black". Hitler means "psychopathic mass murderer". Besides, this is again the "there is an a…

I don't think that first line is true, most adults are able to be disagreeable without using a slur, such as us. So no, I would say sexism wouldn't exist if people could disagree on merits of discussion instead of any insults (which, by nature of personal attack, immediately invokes all *isms of the victim). Second, there's a huge difference between insulting someone because of their perceived character ("asshole") w…

But people get angry and want to insult each other. Sure, it would be nicer if they wouldn't, but it is not in itself related to racism or sexism. I guess the unwarranted insults are often the most annoying, because there is no possible counter.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#175

Post by [deleted] »

cjslep wrote: post #170
anothercomment wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just call people what the suppose annoys them most. That is why they call women cunts and men gay or sexist or whatever. Would you say sexism is only over when men are being called cunts and bitches? Actually it seems to me Nigger is a lot softer than Hitler. It basically means "black person I don't like because they are black". Hitler means "psychopathic mass murderer". Besides, this is again the "there is an a…

I don't think that first line is true, most adults are able to be disagreeable without using a slur, such as us. So no, I would say sexism wouldn't exist if people could disagree on merits of discussion instead of any insults (which, by nature of personal attack, immediately invokes all *isms of the victim). Second, there's a huge difference between insulting someone because of their perceived character ("asshole") w…

[deleted]

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#176

Post by metaphorm »

jlebar wrote: post #171
metaphorm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This system does not facilitate accusations of any kind, because it is anonymous to all parties involved. I find considerable irony in this assertion considering we're talking about Google here. If any organization should know about the emptiness of promises of anonymity it's Google. > Nobody is being publicly accused of anything, as has been said multiple times in this thread. they are, actually. they're being acc…

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people accused of harassment. I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of women and minorities in tech, who are disproportionately the victims of harassment.

my interest isn't narrowly constrained to people accused of harassment. my interest is in setting standards for ethics, which I find to be absolutely essential at this cultural moment because our standards of discourse and ethics seems to be breaking down.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#177

Post by Kalium »

jlebar wrote: post #171
metaphorm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This system does not facilitate accusations of any kind, because it is anonymous to all parties involved. I find considerable irony in this assertion considering we're talking about Google here. If any organization should know about the emptiness of promises of anonymity it's Google. > Nobody is being publicly accused of anything, as has been said multiple times in this thread. they are, actually. they're being acc…

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people accused of harassment. I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of women and minorities in tech, who are disproportionately the victims of harassment.

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people who are disproportionately the victims of harassment.

I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of those who might be anonymously accused of harassment without evidence or opportunity to defend themselves.

-----

Does it sound better turned around? If not, why not? What are you attempting to communicate, and how might you state it more clearly?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#178

Post by jlebar »

Kalium wrote: post #177
jlebar wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people accused of harassment. I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of women and minorities in tech, who are disproportionately the victims of harassment.

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people who are disproportionately the victims of harassment. I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of those who might be anonymously accused of harassment without evidence or opportunity to defend themselves. ----- Does it sound better turned around? If not, why not? What are you attempting to communicate, and how mi…

If people were being named and shamed without being given an opportunity to defend themselves, I would be concerned about that.

To my knowledge, as I have said a dozen times in this thread, that is not happening. Nobody here can point to a single instance of that happening as a result of this email list. All anyone has offered is an entirely hypothetical slippery-slope potential.

We know that people are being harassed in our workplaces all the time. That's a real problem, which is why I am concerned about it.

You keep equating these two issues -- harassment and false accusations -- like they're both big problems that we need to worry about equally. I have zero evidence that this is true, and tons of evidence that it's not.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#180

Post by Kalium »

jlebar wrote: post #178
Kalium wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's great that you are so worried about the well-being of people who are disproportionately the victims of harassment. I only wish you'd express and weigh equally a concern for the well-being of those who might be anonymously accused of harassment without evidence or opportunity to defend themselves. ----- Does it sound better turned around? If not, why not? What are you attempting to communicate, and how mi…

If people were being named and shamed without being given an opportunity to defend themselves, I would be concerned about that. To my knowledge, as I have said a dozen times in this thread, that is not happening. Nobody here can point to a single instance of that happening as a result of this email list. All anyone has offered is an entirely hypothetical slippery-slope potential. We know that people are being harasse…

You may wish to consider the possibility that I do not "keep equating" any two issues. Indeed, I have not engaged with any other person at any point in this entire discussion.

But no matter. Thank you for clarifying your perspective. I understand, appreciate, and empathize with it. After all, here before us is a clear, real, known problem that hurts the vulnerable and weak among us. Why would we worry about what else could go wrong, when we know for certain that women and minorities are being hurt?

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