1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders • Hacker News Board

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#121

Post by hypersoar » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:32 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #73

gruez wrote: post #31

Counter: the border agent asks "are you hiding any information from us?". answer yes, and they get you to disable travel mode. answer no, and you just committed a felony.

As a general comment to so many of the follow-ups to this post: You really, really don't want to get into a rules-lawyering match with Federal fucking prosecutors over whether "clever technological solution" counts as "hiding" something or not. They have all of the guns in this situation, and you have a demonstrably inaccurate understanding of the relevant statute. You WILL lose.

More than that, everyone is getting up on the wording of the particular hypothetical question posed above. It could easily be replaced with "Did you remove any data from your device so that we wouldn't be able to see it?", or "Did you enable Travel Mode in 1Password?", or even "Please sign this form affirming that you have not hidden anything from us or employed anything from this list of loopholes thought up by cheeky engineers."

Your adversary here is a group of humans. Not a Bash script.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#122

Post by late2part » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:32 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #61

eridius wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally removing your access to data isn't the same thing as hiding it. Having a TrueCrypt partition on your drive that you can still unlock if you know it's there is hiding it. Securely erasing that partition is not.

This is closer to the former than the latter. You aren't erasing the data that's protected under the vaults. You're just temporarily removing the vaults from local storage, disabling access and obscuring its presence. It's trivial to re-enable that access, so you are hiding , not destroying . Nice mental gymnastics, though. I'm genuinely curious whether the first Federal judge to see this argument laughs or issues a…

I don't understand your logic. Facts matter. Either you have the data on your laptop or you don't. If it's been removed, you don't.

Yes, they can ask you if you've deleted things, or if you have things elsewhere, but that's not generally what they ask or look for, or the issue at hand.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#123

Post by sethev » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:33 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #73

gruez wrote: post #31

Counter: the border agent asks "are you hiding any information from us?". answer yes, and they get you to disable travel mode. answer no, and you just committed a felony.

As a general comment to so many of the follow-ups to this post: You really, really don't want to get into a rules-lawyering match with Federal fucking prosecutors over whether "clever technological solution" counts as "hiding" something or not. They have all of the guns in this situation, and you have a demonstrably inaccurate understanding of the relevant statute. You WILL lose.

If the question is "are you hiding any information" then the obvious (and true) answer is no. If the question is "did you use travel mode for 1password" then that's a very different question. Unless you can point out a statute that requires you to travel with certain information on your device it's hard for me to see the problem.

Your position seems to be that if you were carrying your checkbook (as an American) and then decided against it because you were worried someone might get your bank account number then you somehow risk getting into a debate over technicalities with a border agent. I would strongly recommend not getting into that debate as well by not bringing it up.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#124

Post by eridius » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:33 PM UTC

confounded wrote: post #44

eridius wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you know them. I don't know about you, but I don't have my long random account key memorized (only my master password). You can't log into the website without that account key. Of course, you do need to be able to log in to turn travel mode back on, so if I were to use this I'd probably do something like set up a service to securely send me my account key after I'm expected to have finished crossing the borde…

That's a great solution if you're a US citizen and want to enjoy showing off to a border guard before being guaranteed entry, but for migrants (who are most affected by this), this kind of 'gotcha' logic would likely be considered insubordinate grandstanding, and get them denied entry.

> this kind of 'gotcha' logic would likely be considered insubordinate grandstanding

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone, migrants included, to tell CBP "I don't feel safe traveling with sensitive data, so I don't have any of that data on my computer". What's the 'gotcha' here? CBP isn't the only reason to want to have Travel Mode, there's also the increased risk of having your laptop stolen or misplaced.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#125

Post by late2part » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #106

rosser wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can the border patrol ask you to sign into any online service? If you're a non-citizen attempting to enter the US under a visa waiver program, from certain countries, yes, they can.

Then you can just turn around and be deported. Non-citizens don't have many rights at the border. The big questions is for Americans, who also have fewer rights at the border (4th amendment for example). Can they force you to sign into external services at the airport if you're a citizen? Everyone should refuse to do this.

I'm not a lawyer, and I hate having to preface that. But Hell No they can't. They can ask. They can threaten. But once they know you're a US citizen, they either detain you or they let you go (on to customs).

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#126

Post by easilyBored » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #54

lb1lf wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, you don't even need a $5 attitude readjustment tool when you can just shrug and say "Whatever. You are detained until you cough up what we want." - and are able to do just that...

They can't detain you indefinitely without articulating a good reason, even as a non-citizen. What they can do is deny you entry. For citizens, not even that.

* What they can do is deny you entry. For citizens, not even that.*

Job lost. Father died without you seeing him. Thousands of dollars gone in lost ticket, reservations. That's more than enough for 99% of people. The other 1% don't even try to enter USA

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#127

Post by DigitalJack » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #39

netgusto wrote: post #18

Wouldn't an alternative "destroy everything" password be a good idea also ? Would work like this : When forced to enter / give the password to your vault, you enter/give this one, and everything the vault contains is wiped out before the vault is unlocked.

Once again we drum up technical "solutions" to what ultimately is a policy issue. A better idea is to change our laws so that our constitutional rights are respected. If that's not possible then the next solution is to change our elected officials.

It's a matter of practicality.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#128

Post by caseysoftware » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #31

Counter: the border agent asks "are you hiding any information from us?". answer yes, and they get you to disable travel mode. answer no, and you just committed a felony.

You literally don't have the data on you so you're not concealing anything. Just because you can download it later seems like flimsy reasoning.

Otherwise, they could get your for "traveling with more than $X" because you have more than $X in a bank account somewhere that you could get via ATM.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#129

Post by biehl » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:37 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #94

tankenmate wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to a federal employee is a felony; if you know you are answering untruthfully and the USG can prove it then you are probably going to prison.

I think we need a lawyer here, but this seems totally wrong. You're only committing a crime if you lie under oath, either to a court or congress. Cops lie to people all the time. You should use your right to be silent rather than answer any questions of course, but that right disappears at the border. Still, lying to a customs agent isn't a felony (at least not in the US). (If so, please cite the law). If you're not…

I think you are thinking of "Perjury" - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perjury

Other forms of lying can also be illegal, however.

Re: 1Password Travel Mode: Protect your data when crossing borders

#130

Post by LyndsySimon » Tue, May 23, 2017, 8:38 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #94

tankenmate wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to a federal employee is a felony; if you know you are answering untruthfully and the USG can prove it then you are probably going to prison.

I think we need a lawyer here, but this seems totally wrong. You're only committing a crime if you lie under oath, either to a court or congress. Cops lie to people all the time. You should use your right to be silent rather than answer any questions of course, but that right disappears at the border. Still, lying to a customs agent isn't a felony (at least not in the US). (If so, please cite the law). If you're not…

Here's information on the law you seek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements