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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#141

Post by spaceflunky »

anothercomment wrote: post #106
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

I would guess most subscribers simply like gossip and watching train wrecks.

It's like old days of Gawker.com. You could rationalize that you were doing a true public service by participating in the "name and shame" game. Or you could just be there to take pleasure in other people's misery.

Also, look at 'name and shame' subreddits like the SRS communities. Those places are toxic. While I think that there's some value to be had in viewing other people's missteps and learning how to improve based upon them (a favorite quote of mine, "the best way to cure your bad habits is to see them in others"). However, a wide scale list like this one does not seem to me to be good.

For example, the reason aviation gets safer and safer is because every time there's a mistake it's documented, studied, and then if corrections need to be made, they are made. What's not helpful is some open forum where people just make anonymized complaints that some airline has bad pilots or crappy planes. Maybe that's not the best analogy, but I think there's something there...

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#142

Post by metaphorm »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #7

I feel this might be problematic. The Soviet block countries had something called a culture of criticism and self-criticism. As part of this culture, factories would orchestrate meetings in which people who ran afoul of party management were publicly humiliated by their colleagues and ostracized. What's wrong with simply firing people who are implicated in harassment and possibly reporting them to law enforcement?

> What's wrong with simply firing people who are implicated in harassment and possibly reporting them to law enforcement?

because they might be innocent? why is a person's employer a better arbitrator than the legal system? firing someone based on implications is deeply problematic. that kind of action ought to wait until a real legal judgment has been made.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#143

Post by packetslave »

tyingq wrote: post #97
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

It's concerning to me, but not for the reasons you listed. Naming names isn't the only way to out someone on such a list. Details about time, place, personalities, specific words said, etc, can unintentionally out someone. And it's not just the accused that could be outed. The accuser faces the same issue. I don't see why it's odd to have some concerns about this approach. It clearly requires a moderator with some sk…

(Googler w/ the obvious disclaimer)

The moderator(s) have actually been quite good about removing or otherwise obfuscating the details you mentioned.

The entries are usually along the lines of "A (male) engineer said $AWFUL_THING to another (female) engineer in a large meeting". Specific enough that you understand the $AWFUL_THING but generic enough that you can't easily infer who the people are.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#144

Post by jlebar »

humanrebar wrote: post #134
jlebar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with valuing evidence-based judgements and due process. But that is not what I was ranting against. Conflating the trope of immediately jumping to a concern about false accusations while ignoring victims with "valuing evidence-based judgements and due pro…

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? What makes you think they don't care about victims? My loved ones and I volunteer a lot in this area. > Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations... There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander,…

>> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims?

> What makes you think they don't care about victims?

I never said that anyone does or doesn't care about anyone else.

I said that the words written here on HN focused on the spectre of false accusations, rather than on the victims of harassment, abuse, and worse. I also said that this is a common, much-discussed failure mode, and that we should know better.

> There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people.

Right.

But in this particular instance, we're talking about wanting to protect people from those they're harassing. This list is very clearly not being used to bully anyone, and part of my objection is with the kneejerk assumption that this must be what's going on, and that privileged white men aren't getting sufficient protection in their workplace.

What I am saying is, rather than restricting our consideration to fringy concerns of how this list might harm white men (it doesn't), we should also (not even exclusively! -- just also) consider how it affects everyone else.

[edited for formatting]

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#145

Post by jlebar »

metaphorm wrote: post #138
jlebar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with valuing evidence-based judgements and due process. But that is not what I was ranting against. Conflating the trope of immediately jumping to a concern about false accusations while ignoring victims with "valuing evidence-based judgements and due pro…

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? you're connecting two points that are not naturally connected. caring about false accusations does not exclude caring about victims. additionally, some awareness of the current political climate is necessary for this discussion. false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.

> false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.

I really think you are missing my point, sadly.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#147

Post by jlebar »

Kenji wrote: post #131
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

Your comment contains a lot of appeals to emotion and very few facts, if any at all (for example, the claim that the "vast majority" of rape accusations is true definitely needs a source). This is the hallmark of someone who goes along with mainstream opinion without thinking for themselves. I urge you and everyone else to think deeply before reiterating what you have heard or read from others.

> Your comment contains a lot of appeals to emotion and very few facts, if any at all (for example, the claim that the "vast majority" of rape accusations is true definitely needs a source).

https://www.google.com/search?q=fraction+of+rape+reports+tha...

> I urge you and everyone else to think deeply before reiterating what you have heard or read from others.

Likewise. :)

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#148

Post by metaphorm »

jlebar wrote: post #145
metaphorm wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? you're connecting two points that are not naturally connected. caring about false accusations does not exclude caring about victims. additionally, some awareness of the current political climate is necessary for this discussion. false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.

> false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts. I really think you are missing my point, sadly.

what's your point then? maybe you're missing my point.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#149

Post by chipgap98 »

anothercomment wrote: post #111
chipgap98 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are instances of false accusations, isn't the larger problem in our society that people are harassed or abused at work on a seemingly regular basis?

False accusations are also harassment.

Agreed. But it seems like the problem we have now is that more people are being harassed and not being taken seriously with their claims than people making false claims. Is that a world we are okay with living in? Regardless of the answer we should be having that conversation

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#150

Post by jlebar »

metaphorm wrote: post #148
jlebar wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts. I really think you are missing my point, sadly.

what's your point then? maybe you're missing my point.

My point is:

> This trope of jumping immediately to the problem of false accusations is sadly common in discussions e.g. of rape reporting. Yes, some reports of rape (and harassment) are untrue. The vast majority aren't. Jumping so quickly, as many comments here have, to considering effects of fake reports is wildly disrespectful of the (largely female, and thus underrepresented here and at places like Google) victims, and is part of the reason that rape and sexual assault go underreported.

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