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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#21

Post by tdb7893 »

sacheendra wrote: post #10
1ba9115454 wrote: post #3

- A female employee was allegedly called a “princess” for favoring salad over burgers. I imagine the guy that delivered that comment would be hard pushed to figure out what he did wrong. I suppose we all have to really careful what we say.

Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. This could be making fun of a friend. How is this harassment?

In a workplace you are talking to a colleague that you respect. In my experience "princess" is either used to refer to a child or someone who is spoiled and weak. It's really all about context, if I call my friend a "cunt" at home when he uses a blue shell in MarioKart no one is uncomfortable but if I used it in the workplace it's a huge problem and will make people really uncomfortable.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#22

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

Is this what got Amit Singhal in the first place, perhaps? (EDIT: I guess not, he left fifteen months ago, this list is eight months old.) It's briefly mentioned in this article, but I was shocked less people talked about what the Amit Singhal story meant for Google. That one of their most senior executives, who at one point rewrote the entire Google Search engine, when that was possible for one person to do, and wor…

I've worked with my share of jerks and assholes. Rarely have I seen them dealt with. Mean people often know how to manipulate their messaging you avoid punative action. Few places have a zero tolerance policy, they'll just move them somewhere else.

None of the jerks or assholes I've known had anything happen to them, that I am aware of. I'd like to think they'll be fired eventually.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#23

Post by refurb »

snomad wrote: post #8

> One employee said that during a one-on-one performance review with a manager, he was told that his rating dropped from "Exceeds" to "Meets" because he didn't get as much done while on paternity leave. If true, that is quite obviously legally actionable.

Is it?

As long as the performance review was done based on the employee's performance over the entire year, it's fair game no?

I'm not sure I agree with the logic that someone who takes time off during the year is given credit for the good work they would have done had they not taken time off.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#24

Post by pythonaut_16 »

camus2 wrote: post #12
sacheendra wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. This could be making fun of a friend. How is this harassment?

> Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. Obviously casual sexism. Friend or not that's not professional to call a colleague that way at the workplace.

If it's a friend there's probably some flexibility depending on the context of the friendship.

But if the "friend" feels the need to file a complaint rather than talk to the person about it then clearly the comment wasn't appropriate.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#25

Post by jschwartzi »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #5

Why is confidential material for public consumption? All this is stuff that ought to go to the Ombudsman, HR or the police to be dealt with properly. What good does it do to hear "my supervisor is habitually oversharing and told me she smokes hashish and is worried about an upcoming drug test"?

Because you don't necessarily need to involve the police every time you're trying to set an interpersonal boundary. Most people are well adjusted enough to change their behavior when you ask them to, and you don't need the threat of firing or jail to convince these people. You just need to ask them, nicely but assertively, to stop.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#26

Post by nxc18 »

snomad wrote: post #8

> One employee said that during a one-on-one performance review with a manager, he was told that his rating dropped from "Exceeds" to "Meets" because he didn't get as much done while on paternity leave. If true, that is quite obviously legally actionable.

I get why there should be protection for people on paternity leave. At the same time, if you're using an 'expectations' system appropriately and honestly (as opposed to just a renaming of some other scale) it may be dishonest to not change his rating. If there is an expectation about performance and it wasn't exceeded (how could you exceed your typical performance while on paternity leave?) then the employee shouldn't be given an exceeds.

The big issues here (at least for me) are that a) there was a non-zero expectation for someone on paternity leave and b) someone was given a performance evaluation either while on or regarding work done during a paternity leave.

I'm curious if this signals a larger issue at Google where they have paternity leave 'in name only' - similar to 'unlimited' vacation policies and the like.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#27

Post by masklinn »

to3m wrote: post #9
1ba9115454 wrote: post #3

- A female employee was allegedly called a “princess” for favoring salad over burgers. I imagine the guy that delivered that comment would be hard pushed to figure out what he did wrong. I suppose we all have to really careful what we say.

Hmm. I'm actually struggling to think of a situation where it would be the done thing to call one of your colleagues "princess", be they male or female.

If they are a genuine princess (not necessarily outlandish if you live in a place which 1. still has royalty and 2. has a pretty down-to-earth one — after all we've recently learned Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands moonlights as a commercial co-pilot) — or if they come to work wearing a tiara, or if they ask you?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#28

Post by HarryHirsch »

jschwartzi wrote: post #25
HarryHirsch wrote: post #5

Why is confidential material for public consumption? All this is stuff that ought to go to the Ombudsman, HR or the police to be dealt with properly. What good does it do to hear "my supervisor is habitually oversharing and told me she smokes hashish and is worried about an upcoming drug test"?

Because you don't necessarily need to involve the police every time you're trying to set an interpersonal boundary. Most people are well adjusted enough to change their behavior when you ask them to, and you don't need the threat of firing or jail to convince these people. You just need to ask them, nicely but assertively, to stop.

When you post to the mailing list it's obviously gone past the "assert-boundaries" point, because you tried that already. Nicely but assertively is a problem with unreasonable supervisors in an "at will" state and a weak labour market.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#29

Post by jaclaz »

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #24
camus2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. Obviously casual sexism. Friend or not that's not professional to call a colleague that way at the workplace.

If it's a friend there's probably some flexibility depending on the context of the friendship. But if the "friend" feels the need to file a complaint rather than talk to the person about it then clearly the comment wasn't appropriate.

... or it was simply misunderstood/taken the "wrong" way by someone particularly touchy.

I can understand most of the listed complains, but both the "princess" reference and the one about the hairdressers sending supposedly racists code messages sound more like if some problems are also somehow with the people that complained.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#30

Post by occamrazor »

snomad wrote: post #8

> One employee said that during a one-on-one performance review with a manager, he was told that his rating dropped from "Exceeds" to "Meets" because he didn't get as much done while on paternity leave. If true, that is quite obviously legally actionable.

I'd agree that someone who is on leave, and doesn't work, indeed"meets" expectations. It would be a problem only if everybody is expected to exceed expectations, but then all the evaluation process becomes, almost by definition, nonsensical.
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