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Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

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Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#71

Post by flukus »

rosser wrote: post #64
flukus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.

Pointing out the uncontroversial fact that the average black man faces challenges which the average white man doesn't diminishes the white man's accomplishment's ... how , again?

Because it gets used to paint a picture where white people are only successful because they were somehow privileged, which isn't always true.

It's really quite racist actually, you are using skin color as the defining characteristic when socioeconomic status is far more relevant.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#72

Post by CyberTrekker »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #13

The title is misleading (as written on HN) because the meaning of "hominim" is more to do with what we, humans, and other hominim (like neanderthals etc) evolved from. See linked chart: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yEUEavwMSCE/ULtMp3e_cVI/AAAAAAAAAD... This isn't our specific species but rather whatever we and similar species evolved from. I'm absolutely no expert on the subject. I actually find the title offensive if I…

Every conceptual viewpoint reflects a particular world view, whether an officially accepted world view or an alternative world view. To rest an objection or finding a fault on the basis of a generalized statement like you made anent "world view" is actually proof of nothing and possesses little meaning of any consequence - other than, of course, that we reflect an individual or a collective world view.

As for the origin and global point of emergence of the human species, this could be debated ad nauseam. I would contend that no current view would be entirely correct.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#73

Post by pavanky »

gatlinnewhouse wrote: post #21
ry_ry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Potential hominin affinities of Graecopithecus from the Late Miocene of Europe" I have no idea what that even says :(

I'll take a stab "Evolutionary Ancestors of Modern Humans Originate from Greece Instead of Africa"

Some people may read it as immediate ancestors. But I don't know how we can clarify that in a succinct manner.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#74

Post by a_bonobo »

defen wrote: post #48

For a somewhat skeptical take: http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/miocene/graecopithecus/g...

This is a good take which, IMHO, fits the dominant out-of-Africa data

Quote: >I think we should take seriously that Graecopithecus premolar root morphology may be yet another demonstration that supposed “hominin” characters actually evolved in other branches of apes during the Miocene. This feature is far from alone. Many other features that supposedly link Ardipithecus or Sahelanthropus with hominins are also found in other Miocene fossils. My colleagues and I documented some of these Miocene ape-like features in Sahelanthropus in 2006.

So the tooth-form that appears only in hominins could not be a marker, but a very similar tooth-form could have developed in non-hominins

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#75

Post by flukus »

tacomonstrous wrote: post #68
flukus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.

I must have missed the part where the white man's ancestors were enslaved for generations, and then, even after being ostensibly freed, were segregated, oppressed and prevented from participating in the greatest economic boom the country has known by overtly racist policies that prevented them from accumulating generational wealth.

Then you need to read more history, because it's happened just about everywhere at various times.

More to the point though, a lot of white people didn't get in on that economic boom either, a lot of Balkan refugees during the 90's for instance, they don't like being told how privileged they are.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#76

Post by [deleted] »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #13

The title is misleading (as written on HN) because the meaning of "hominim" is more to do with what we, humans, and other hominim (like neanderthals etc) evolved from. See linked chart: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yEUEavwMSCE/ULtMp3e_cVI/AAAAAAAAAD... This isn't our specific species but rather whatever we and similar species evolved from. I'm absolutely no expert on the subject. I actually find the title offensive if I…

[deleted]

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#77

Post by fnl »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #13

The title is misleading (as written on HN) because the meaning of "hominim" is more to do with what we, humans, and other hominim (like neanderthals etc) evolved from. See linked chart: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yEUEavwMSCE/ULtMp3e_cVI/AAAAAAAAAD... This isn't our specific species but rather whatever we and similar species evolved from. I'm absolutely no expert on the subject. I actually find the title offensive if I…

Your post itself is inciting, because you imply that those up-voting the post did so due to "their world views". I am sure you can think of other, less offensive reasons that are more likely explanations of the votes, like scientific curiosity.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#78

Post by Sacho »

tacomonstrous wrote: post #44
ryanx435 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of SJWs against a small and very vocal branch of counter SJWs, but both sides of it are in a meme war (using the scientific definition of meme: a mechanism to transfer ideas and culture) and the effects of their culture clashes are large enough for you and I to n…

Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple dis advantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual v…

Well, there's two issues I would have with your statement.

The first is that "pointing out" is not where the story ends; like parent said, there is a small minority of people who use this "average man"(an amalgamation of features that doesn't actually exist in reality) to shame specific individuals(e.g. calling out novel authors for being "privileged" and thus shouldn't write characters with a different skin colour). This usage opens you up to an obvious reciprocal attack you would probably object to - one could point out that the average black person is much more likely to be arrested(https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-...) and use this to call specific black people "dangerous". In both cases, you are prejudging based on a stereotype.

The second objection is that once you start to delve into the "privileges", the label just doesn't seem to fit the actual things being described. Actually searching for "white male privileges" leads me to articles that are so easy to fight that I feel like I'd be addressing a strawman[0][1][2], so if possible, could you provide a list? My general contention is that the lists of "privileges" end up being a mix of: significant outcome benefits which have controversial correlation-not-causation interpretations(e.g. is blacks being arrested more "white privilege" or simply the amalgamated effect of high poverty, low education and latent racism?); things you would not really describe as "privileges" but simply different choices(e.g. men having longer careers due to spending less family time); things that are incredibly petty("I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time." from [0])

[0] - http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/whit...

[1] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-...

[2] - http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-...

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#79

Post by rosser »

flukus wrote: post #71
rosser wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out the uncontroversial fact that the average black man faces challenges which the average white man doesn't diminishes the white man's accomplishment's ... how , again?

Because it gets used to paint a picture where white people are only successful because they were somehow privileged, which isn't always true. It's really quite racist actually, you are using skin color as the defining characteristic when socioeconomic status is far more relevant.

It gets "used" to "paint" that picture by people who are opposed to the concept. The notion of "privilege", as it's used in academic "social justice" work (and by pretty much everyone I've ever heard from or spoken with who takes "non-toxic" "SJW" values to heart) specifically accounts for that.

(You may not hear about it from the latter, because they're probably sick to fucking death of hearing the same complaint, premised in a complete misunderstanding of the whole concept, from people — usually, surprise!, white men — over and over again. Wouldn't you be?)

But it's so much easier to rail against the straw-man version of a concept that confirms your biases, right?

EDIT: phrasing. And some "This again?" eye-roll. Sorry: not sorry.

Re: Scientists find 7.2M-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans

#80

Post by yorwba »

tacomonstrous wrote: post #44
ryanx435 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of SJWs against a small and very vocal branch of counter SJWs, but both sides of it are in a meme war (using the scientific definition of meme: a mechanism to transfer ideas and culture) and the effects of their culture clashes are large enough for you and I to n…

Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple dis advantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual v…

See it like this: You know how the other side has those incredibly stupid people who can't even make a coherent argument, tout a blog post as a credible source and react to rational argument with insults and threats?

Well, your side has them, too. If you care about social issues, they are toxic SJWs. If you are a patriot, they are white supremacists. If you are a Muslim, they are Islamist terrorists.

Arguments are not soldiers [0]. Don't let a disagreement turn into a war. If you see someone support a cause you care about, but for the wrong reasons; and do so in a manner that alienates anyone who disagrees, you should call them out on it.

[0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_...

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