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Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

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Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#101

Post by knodi123 »

astrodust wrote: post #88
zkms wrote: post #69

Read this paper as well https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit... -- the researchers who wrote it obtained (on the surplus market) the same model of backscatter X-ray body scanner that was deployed in US airports and proceeded to evaluate and validate various schemes for undetectable concealment of firearms, knives, and explosives. Other research was done, including a software implant that would…

Ceramic, glass and plastic knives can be extremely dangerous and yet they probably don't show up on these machines at all. The utility of these machines is questionable to say the least. Bruce Schneier observed, like you did, that the heavily secured cockpit door is one of the only real improvements made to airplane security in the last few decades.

> and yet they probably don't show up on these machines at all

Uh, yeah, they do. Have read anything about backscatter xray machines?

The real way to defeat these machines is to hide things in folds of your flesh. It can see through clothes, but not too much skin. In staged demonstrations, fat people have gotten a metal pistol through, no problem.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#102

Post by CamperBob2 »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #42
jakobdabo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

The Fifth Amendment still applies in the "constitution free zone." The name is a bit exaggerated by the ACLU to make their point. No matter where you are, the U.S.government cannot force you to speak as a condition of flying home. Just be quiet rather than deceitful.

No matter where you are, the U.S.government cannot force you...

They have more guns than you do. That means that any statement beginning with the words above is wrong, no matter what comes after those words.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#103

Post by subterfudge44 »

dvdhnt wrote: post #77
Animats wrote: post #32

The secrecy issue has gotten out of hand. The classic military view of secrecy is time-limited. "Where the ship was last week is unclassified. Where the ship was yesterday is confidential. Where the ship is now is secret. Where the ship will be tomorrow is top secret." The opposition will eventually find out what you're planning on doing. The goal is for them to find out the hard way, when incoming fire starts hittin…

This is wrong. The classification level of information is determined by confidentiality of the information's source. This is done to protect deeply embedded or highly technical means of information gathering. For example, information that could have only come from the second in command of some organization would require the highest of security classifications whereas information that could have come from any dozens o…

Depends of objective of classification. What you say is applicable when the objective is national security. When the objective is to hide incompetence it makes sense to make everything classified.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#104

Post by koenigdavidmj »

rtkwe wrote: post #53
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #3

Hey look, a security crisis that can only be fixed by requiring that we prove our devices are functional, most likely by turning them on, logging in, and showing that there are a few documents present. And in some cases, extra manual evaluation will be required, entailing taking that logged-in laptop into a back room for further inspection. They won't copy everything onto a disk of their own---honest!

Even forcing people to turn on devices doesn't really fix it. Just keep three (for proper voltage so you don't have to add any boost circuitry) of the cells in your battery bomb and it'll be more than enough to pass their screening.

Whether this actually helps security is irrelevant.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#105

Post by tsaoutourpants »

Hi Everyone, author of post here with an update for you. The most modern x-ray systems in use by the TSA at airports to screen carry-on bags can indeed see through lithium batteries. It also differentiates densities, and it seems to me that the latest tech should therefore be able to indicate the difference between a battery and C4 in a battery-shaped box. So is it that the airports subject to the laptop ban have the older tech? Well...

Read more: https://professional-troublemaker.com/2017/05/22/update-newe...

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#106

Post by zkms »

astrodust wrote: post #88
zkms wrote: post #69

Read this paper as well https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit... -- the researchers who wrote it obtained (on the surplus market) the same model of backscatter X-ray body scanner that was deployed in US airports and proceeded to evaluate and validate various schemes for undetectable concealment of firearms, knives, and explosives. Other research was done, including a software implant that would…

Ceramic, glass and plastic knives can be extremely dangerous and yet they probably don't show up on these machines at all. The utility of these machines is questionable to say the least. Bruce Schneier observed, like you did, that the heavily secured cockpit door is one of the only real improvements made to airplane security in the last few decades.

> Ceramic, glass and plastic knives can be extremely dangerous

Yes, but not more so on aircraft. Passengers (who tend to not want to die in a suicide hijacking) will fight for their lives against hijackers who use knives. Sometimes the attempted hijackers die from the injuries sustained by the passengers fighting back: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Airlines_Flight_7554

I really don't worry about knives on airplanes, what's scary is energetic materials (explosives or gunpowder) or someone tampering with electrical/avionics equipment.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#107

Post by dvdhnt »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #84
dvdhnt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong. The classification level of information is determined by confidentiality of the information's source. This is done to protect deeply embedded or highly technical means of information gathering. For example, information that could have only come from the second in command of some organization would require the highest of security classifications whereas information that could have come from any dozens o…

It is certainly correct that DHS, and to some extent our government generally, is known for over-classifying things either out of laziness, desire to avoid embarrassment, or because they believe that anything remotely security related needs to be hidden. As an intelligence analyst, you likely didn't see the misclassified things (I'd imagine roughly everything you did was classified for good reason). It's the politica…

That's a fair accusation - you're responsible for increasing the classification of material if you find it to be under-classified, or request a review in the opposite case. So, it wouldn't be surprising if something came across the desk of a decision-maker or the IC's version of middle-management and they selfishly raised its classification hoping it'd be lost in a blackhole for fear of embarrassment, etc.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#108

Post by jaclaz »

cstejerean wrote: post #81
coredog64 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fly into the US, it is more than likely that not only will you have to clear airport security provided by the host country, you will also have to go through security provided by the US. It will be US equipment and US citizens operating it. So in that sense, if Whereveristan wants to sell the airport X-ray equipment they can get, it isn't going to be useful in determining what can pass US screening.

That's highly unlikely for most places in the world. What is often required is additional screening at or near the gate to enforce US specific rules (for example liquids in carry-ons). But that's usually not US staff and US equipment but rather extra staff enforcing US specific rules (the same way the laptop ban is currently enforced in Dubai for example).

Which are not "US Specific", liquids in carry-ons in containers larger than 100 ml are forbidden in Europe as well, this is UK as an example:

https://www.gov.uk/hand-luggage-restrictions

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#109

Post by sokoloff »

jaclaz wrote: post #14
tsaoutourpants wrote: post #2

Hi All, author of the article here. Happy to answer any questions you may have about the laptop ban, aviation security, TSA assholery, Trump's travel-related civil rights abuses (incl. the "Muslim ban"), or other such topics of interest. And, thanks for the support... HN is always one of the first communities to upvote my work and help me share it with the world. As a computer scientist turned almost-lawyer, I defini…

While it is perfectly possible that a scanning device disappeared somewhere, it is not the only way someone can study how to conceal hidden explosive in luggage. I mean are the people that operate daily these machines vetted to a level where you can totally exclude that they (in ALL airports wordwide) can be affiliated to whatever evil organization and do some tests after hours? Does the same happen for all technicia…

> I mean are the people that operate daily these machines vetted to a level where you can totally exclude that they (in ALL airports wordwide) can be affiliated to whatever evil organization and do some tests after hours?

If you have a confederate operating the machine, it would seem easier to arrange to pass through their security line than to use the knowledge to make an X-ray look-alike bomb-laden laptop.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#110

Post by sokoloff »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #96
tsaoutourpants wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Israeli model requires ethnic and religious discrimination. It is not an option in the US, nor should it be.

Should it be an option there?

I don't live there, so IMO, I don't have standing to have an opinion.

That's for them to decide.

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