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Google in, Google out

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Re: Google in, Google out

#41

Post by Chathamization »

Loic wrote: post #4
Mathnerd314 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a general Luddite / anti-tech paradigm. Historically, strange things were dangerous and/or poisonous. Tech people probably recognize these devices from science fiction books / movies / stories, so they don't get scared, but the rest of the world has no context to place them in and hence treats them like unexploded ordnance.

By framing this as "luddite/anti-tech" you do not address the fundamental question: Do you really want your life to have such high dependency on a single corporation? I am in no ways anti-tech, but the history has shown that putting your life in the hands of a single corporation is not a sane decision.

And a secretive organization at that. That's one of the big issues, the same as with the NSA - not just privacy, but the privacy differential. When an organization is able to learn everything about you, but you are able to learn little about them.

Re: Google in, Google out

#42

Post by zyx321 »

Mathnerd314 wrote: post #25
pawadu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there are two problems with this particular company: 1. they have grown this mentality where they gather any data they can get their hands on - apologize only when/if caught red handed. (remember google street car password gathering?). 2. the more you use their services the more dependent you become. but google have shown zero care for individual consumers. (who do you call if gmail craps out on you?)

> data gathering It's not really any worse an invasion of privacy than Snowden or Wikileaks. At least Google apologizes instead of going on about how information should be free. > more dependent Google actively reduces dependence, e.g. by their data takeout option. Obviously there's always going to be some switching cost but it's not like Google is a prison. > Who do you call if gmail craps out Well, if you have a SL…

>It's not really any worse an invasion of privacy than Snowden or Wikileaks

So informing people that their government is spying on them is the same as spying on them yourself?

Re: Google in, Google out

#43

Post by cyphar »

Mathnerd314 wrote: post #19
Loic wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By framing this as "luddite/anti-tech" you do not address the fundamental question: Do you really want your life to have such high dependency on a single corporation? I am in no ways anti-tech, but the history has shown that putting your life in the hands of a single corporation is not a sane decision.

Referring to "the history" is just wrong, there are always conflicting perspectives and facts. See http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173396 ; there have been plenty of (presumably sane) people who depended on a single corporation. It's not clear whether they're better off for it, and there is a slippery-slope argument, but monopolies and lock-in are…

> It's not clear whether they're better off for it, and there is a slippery-slope argument, but monopolies and lock-in are not intrinsically evil.

They are only not intrinsically evil if you make the assumption that they will never harm you (act in a way you didn't bargain for) or disappear. A company which does either has given you no way out of a service you now depend on and are fucked if it doesn't work for you anymore.

Given the churn on technology companies, acquisitions and a general lack of ethics, I would not put a lot of trust in claiming that companies are going to uphold either of those requirements. Thus, I would argue that effectively all companies will do evil inevitably and thus are intrinsically evil.

Not to mention that companies are psychopaths by structure. They definitely don't care about you (hell, they don't care about their employees on the whole).

Re: Google in, Google out

#44

Post by ocdtrekkie »

jankey wrote: post #16
pawadu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically they are not yet uploading everything into the cloud Don't they upload every "Hey, Google!" command to their cloud? I assume they would upload some background sound to train their algorithms against background noise.

Sure, you can review and delete everything here: https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity?restrict=vaa&utm_so... (I work for Google)

Note that if you opt out of Google keeping this history, I believe Google still keeps all your voice recordings, you just lose the ability to review and "delete" them, and they aren't tied to your account anymore.

This is one of the crazier notions I've seen in a privacy dark pattern: "Let us track you or we'll keep your data forever".

Re: Google in, Google out

#45

Post by seastonATccs »

m12k wrote: post #37
buro9 wrote: post #11

> They don’t just want to remake the world in their image. They want to remake our individual lives. Each Stack — bar Facebook, for now — offers the same awkward bargain: commit wholly & wholeheartedly to our ecosystem, and we will better your life. And it just might work, if any of the newer Google experiences worked on all Google accounts. My experience as a Google Apps / G Suite user, is that few to none of the ne…

I'm developing a web app that can be installed via the G Suite Marketplace. They also have an 'Integrate with Google' button that we can put on our website so users can just install/grant permissions from there - sounds great - in principle. Except the users don't have any way of choosing which account it uses. So if they happened to log into their personal Gmail account before their work G Suite account, well, then…

The google OAuth flow rolling out now has a more conspicuous account choose. Before when installing/authorizing the app selecting the account was virtually hidden.

Re: Google in, Google out

#46

Post by basch »

buro9 wrote: post #11

> They don’t just want to remake the world in their image. They want to remake our individual lives. Each Stack — bar Facebook, for now — offers the same awkward bargain: commit wholly & wholeheartedly to our ecosystem, and we will better your life. And it just might work, if any of the newer Google experiences worked on all Google accounts. My experience as a Google Apps / G Suite user, is that few to none of the ne…

It's identical at Microsoft. Your Office 365 AAD account does everything, unless it needs to be paired with a Microsoft (live, xbox, skype, outlook.com/hotmail account)

Re: Google in, Google out

#47

Post by mwexler »

It is interesting that of the 5, Microsoft is still in the mix. Look back 10 years, or 20 years, and ask which companies you would have thought would also be present. MS may have made the list, but wouldn't a lot of others as well?

Apple is also surprising, but then again, that's what they were so good at. You expect someone to come out of nowhere, but MS just keeps on chugging when so many others failed out.

Re: Google in, Google out

#48

Post by MrQuincle »

jlg23 wrote: post #23
MrQuincle wrote: post #2

> And yet. Like every I/O attendee I received a free Google Home device as part of the I/O experience. (I attended as an engineer, not as press.) But I don’t want one; I’ll be giving mine away. Sorry, Google. It’s not that I mistrust you. It’s just that I don’t want to have to trust any profit-driven megacorporation quite that much. Not Apple, not Amazon, and not even you. It is very interesting to me why certain mic…

> It is very interesting to me why certain microphones and cameras are fine, while others are not. If you film yourself during sex that's one thing. If I film you during sex without your explicit consent that's a completely different thing. > However, it is a no no to embed a cam in a pair of glasses. Building a mic into a speaker is not okay. Building is not the problem, usage is. People don't complain about the new…

The deeper question then is the following: Why is it so hard to have people care about privacy enough?

If there would be such a strong gradient towards privacy-favoring products and services, why does society so slowly adapt?

+ It might be that the risks are not yet understood. As argued here: http://laoutaris.info/index.php/2016/09/11/oh-but-people-don...

+ It is politically a much stronger move to act upon feelings of fear than on more abstract risk calculations. Advocated here: https://openmedia.org/en/why-it-so-hard-convince-people-care...

+ From our bubble we might think privacy is valuable, but this might just not be shared broadly. Rich people admire privacy: http://www.businessinsider.de/wealthy-people-care-about-priv...

+ People might not want privacy, but something slightly related: they do not want surprises. http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/12/people-dont-....

I don't know how many business models are based on privacy, but my assumption is that it's much more likely to succeed with your startup on betting that people will share what you didn't think they would share, then to build a security minded niche product or service.

Re: Google in, Google out

#49

Post by thesuitonym »

m12k wrote: post #37
buro9 wrote: post #11

> They don’t just want to remake the world in their image. They want to remake our individual lives. Each Stack — bar Facebook, for now — offers the same awkward bargain: commit wholly & wholeheartedly to our ecosystem, and we will better your life. And it just might work, if any of the newer Google experiences worked on all Google accounts. My experience as a Google Apps / G Suite user, is that few to none of the ne…

I'm developing a web app that can be installed via the G Suite Marketplace. They also have an 'Integrate with Google' button that we can put on our website so users can just install/grant permissions from there - sounds great - in principle. Except the users don't have any way of choosing which account it uses. So if they happened to log into their personal Gmail account before their work G Suite account, well, then…

>filed a report on their developer support site - of course, this being Google, there's been no answer more than a month later, and I doubt there ever will be...

Don't lose hope, we filed a similar request and then forgot about it. Several months later, we got a response and the issue has now been resolved. Good luck!

Re: Google in, Google out

#50

Post by thesuitonym »

pacala wrote: post #5
MrQuincle wrote: post #2

> And yet. Like every I/O attendee I received a free Google Home device as part of the I/O experience. (I attended as an engineer, not as press.) But I don’t want one; I’ll be giving mine away. Sorry, Google. It’s not that I mistrust you. It’s just that I don’t want to have to trust any profit-driven megacorporation quite that much. Not Apple, not Amazon, and not even you. It is very interesting to me why certain mic…

Always on cameras, always on mics, that's a new low even for Google. Technically they are not yet uploading everything into the cloud, but who in his right mind is trusting Google on privacy anymore? From Google Maps the other day "New! share your location with your friends for an hour". Oh, by the way, give Google Maps permission to always track your location, forever. Wtf. Camera and microphone on the mobile phone…

>Camera and microphone on the mobile phone activate when I press the button to activate them.

Allow me to put on my tinfoil hat for just a moment and remind you that, should Google want to, they could just turn on your microphone and camera without letting you know. Would they? Probably not, but they certainly could, and unless you're in the habit of regularly checking your network traffic, you wouldn't know.

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