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Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#471

Post by virgilp »

MBCook wrote: post #328
Buge wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think there's any irony in the fact that Google noticed that Safari was behaving badly sometimes, and asked Apple to fix it, and Apple said "wow thanks for pointing that out, we're going to make it much more extreme". Google asked for one thing, and because of that was given the exact opposite. That's pretty much the definition of irony. >a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to wh…

I wouldn't have expected Apple to speed up the scrolling on everything else if that's what's really happening, but I don't find it amusing. As I said another comments though Safari was doing exactly what it was designed to do (for whatever reason they designed it that way). I don't think this is a bug on Apple's part. It makes sense to harmonize the scrolling behavior, but I don't believe it was unintentional. Now I…

> As I said another comments though Safari was doing exactly what it was designed to do

Apple seems to disagree with you, though. I would trust Apple to know better what Safari was designed to do.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#472

Post by shados »

carpenumidium wrote: post #376
shados wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet is going to be all AMP and PWA soon, so everything is served from google or on the app store. Enjoy! /barf.

I think you've misunderstood what PWAs are? PWAs are fundementally websites which are built on a bunch of guidelines with performance and accessibility prioritized.

And if you follow those guidelines and with the right meta data, they get treated specially by certain 3rd party, like google/android letting you update them in the app store.

Just like AMP are fundamentally websites built on a bunch of guidelines with performance and accessibility prioritized which, once you sprinkle them with enough metadata, get treated specialty by third party like google.

Yeah, I don't think I misunderstood. AMP's guidelines are just more strict before the 3rd parties start treating you specially. And in both cases, the original website/app is just fine, until it starts getting treated specially.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#473

Post by slowhands »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #340
SL61 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has greatly improved over the years. I remember it being unusably bad when I first tried it in 2013, but today I only have to revert to Google once in a while. That being said, there are rare occasions when it fails spectacularly, bringing up totally irrelevant results for simple searches. It seems to expect more precise queries, while Google is geared toward "close enough" searches. I've found that DDG is often p…

>Google is sometimes too helpful, correcting errors that are not actually errors and failing to take some queries literally enough. While I am still personally a huge fan of Google's work in this are and many others, sometimes I long for the days of straight boolean search queries in search engines. I could often find exactly what I'm looking for, and get the same result each time. Are there any other major or effect…

A full set boolean queries, while useful for specifying a query, are likely far too computationally expensive at scale. The reason you don't see most major search engines abandon them is because the resources are better spent investing into heuristic algorithms that benefit a majority of the userbase.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#474

Post by MBCook »

virgilp wrote: post #470
amazingman wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A hypocrite (Gruber, as evidenced in another thread) calls the AMP team hacks who do terrible work I must have missed this. When did Gruber call the AMP team hacks? > Turns out their "terrible work" is actually Apple's bug and the AMP team points this out both to Apple and to Gruber. This is flat out disingenuous, unless you're talking about something other than the originally submitted DF article. There were multip…

> Are you claiming that all of them are "Apple's bug"? Let's see: - find in page: yup, Webkit bug (Google/Chrome uses Blink). - scrolling behaviour: yup, Safari bug. Anything else that I missed?

It was an intentional decision, not a bug:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14386292

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#475

Post by MBCook »

__derek__ wrote: post #394
MBCook wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to Daring Fireball? It's one of the fastest loading pages on the whole Internet because it's not crapped up with lots of stuff. Gruber's site is proof you don't need AMP to have fast loads. I honestly don't know this: how exactly are AMP pages monetized? Weren't there articles recently that publishers who went with AMP or Facebook's version saw steep declines in revenue?

> how exactly are AMP pages monetized? AMP has an ad component.[1] It seems to have gotten a lot of ad network participation now, but it was pretty limited (i.e. effectively no money via AMP views) last year when I was working for a major content publisher. It's undoubtable that the company lost a lot of ad revenue in exchange for protecting its position in Google search results. [1]: https://github.com/ampproject/am…

Thanks

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#476

Post by carpenumidium »

shados wrote: post #472
carpenumidium wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've misunderstood what PWAs are? PWAs are fundementally websites which are built on a bunch of guidelines with performance and accessibility prioritized.

And if you follow those guidelines and with the right meta data, they get treated specially by certain 3rd party, like google/android letting you update them in the app store. Just like AMP are fundamentally websites built on a bunch of guidelines with performance and accessibility prioritized which, once you sprinkle them with enough metadata, get treated specialty by third party like google. Yeah, I don't think I m…

> like google/android letting you update them in the app store.

Update what? What do you mean by "app store"?

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#477

Post by giobox »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #314
ploxiln wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a solution has existed for at least a decade: ad blocker :)

+ reading mode in Safari helps a ton. But still you are loading ton of unnecessary content. Ad blocking on iOS still sucks (no custom filters).

Custom filters are absolutely possible, it just depends which adblocker you choose to enable. IIRC the block list has to be compiled to a static JSON file for Safari to consume, but most of the decent adblock apps on iOS provide a companion configuration application that lets you insert custom entries then recompile the block list.

If anything I prefer this way of working - Apple alone are responsible for maintaining a high performance adblocker in Safari, the wider app ecosystem just provides the block lists, rather than rely on app developers to write performant browser plugins.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#478

Post by sscabral »

cramforce wrote: post #165

With respect to scrolling: We (AMP team) filed a bug with Apple about that (we didn't implement scrolling ourselves, just use a div with overflow). We asked to make the scroll inertia for that case the same as the normal scrolling. Apple's response was (surprisingly) to make the default scrolling like the overflow scrolling. So, with the next Safari release all pages will scroll like AMP pages. Hope Gruber is happy t…

Maybe Gruber's comments about AMP's scrolling implementation were hypocritical (or naive, at least), but this isn't the biggest problem by far. Considering that Apple addresses what needs to be fixed in terms of how the web behaves on its browser, there's no reason for me to be unable to search for text on an AMP page or scroll back to the top on I tap the status bar on my phone.

I know, those are native platform affordances that the web doesn't need to care directly because iOS is not an open standard. But neither is AMP.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#479

Post by ehed »

cramforce wrote: post #182
cramforce wrote: post #165

With respect to scrolling: We (AMP team) filed a bug with Apple about that (we didn't implement scrolling ourselves, just use a div with overflow). We asked to make the scroll inertia for that case the same as the normal scrolling. Apple's response was (surprisingly) to make the default scrolling like the overflow scrolling. So, with the next Safari release all pages will scroll like AMP pages. Hope Gruber is happy t…

On top of this: we currently have a team working to fix webkit bugs that are problematic for AMP. This, of course, will make webkit better for everyone.

Can you team also work on a way to let people opt-out of Google AMP?

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#480

Post by ghughes »

cramforce wrote: post #182
cramforce wrote: post #165

With respect to scrolling: We (AMP team) filed a bug with Apple about that (we didn't implement scrolling ourselves, just use a div with overflow). We asked to make the scroll inertia for that case the same as the normal scrolling. Apple's response was (surprisingly) to make the default scrolling like the overflow scrolling. So, with the next Safari release all pages will scroll like AMP pages. Hope Gruber is happy t…

On top of this: we currently have a team working to fix webkit bugs that are problematic for AMP. This, of course, will make webkit better for everyone.

Are you going to fix this? https://amphtml.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/image1.png
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