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Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#191

Post by Nomentatus »

coldtea wrote: post #161
cbsmith wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out a seeming contradiction in an advocate's advocacy is not an ad hominem.

Having your central argument against his case focused on his personal contradiction, is: "That genie is out of the box, when you decided that you didn't mind a company gatekeeping which software you can install on "your" devices you opened that can of worms, the one where any company can gatekeep anything they want as long as it is "convenient" for most people."

Wikipedia agrees it's an ad hominen, but NOT fallacious (if true): "However, in some cases, ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument itself. For example, if the truth of the argument relies on the truthfulness of the person making the argument—rather than known facts—then pointing out that the person has previously lied is not a fallacious argument." Lied and contradicted oneself are a close-enough match - but outright contradictions are rare; complex opinions and judgments common.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#192

Post by cramforce »

MBCook wrote: post #190
cramforce wrote: post #165

With respect to scrolling: We (AMP team) filed a bug with Apple about that (we didn't implement scrolling ourselves, just use a div with overflow). We asked to make the scroll inertia for that case the same as the normal scrolling. Apple's response was (surprisingly) to make the default scrolling like the overflow scrolling. So, with the next Safari release all pages will scroll like AMP pages. Hope Gruber is happy t…

The snark at the end seems very unwarranted.

Sorry, but there is some irony there. We were as surprised as anyone. I do like the new inertia much better. Allows for much faster scrolling similar to Android.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#193

Post by MBCook »

theclaw wrote: post #189

Looks like Google have recently added a means of getting out of the AMP "jail" and arriving at the original source site by clicking a little link icon in that irritating header that constantly pops over content while scrolling. This is very welcome. My biggest gripe with AMP was that there was no way out of it.

Too little for me. I still can't easily copy that URL, and there's no way to opt out of it. Instead of fixing their complete break to the way with the web works, they put in a little tiny patch and clean it's just as good.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#194

Post by quakeguy »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #27

Ive forced myself to use Bing since google introduced AMP. Do I like it better than Google? No, I don't. But! I like not having google become my single source of content more than I dislike the slight drop in quality as a result of using Bing. I like the sites I go to, to have control over their content and being able to easily link to them. I think it's reprehensible for google to push this so relentlessly and beyon…

Use ddg.com.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#195

Post by MBCook »

marricks wrote: post #17

I know it might not be their shtick, but I wish the post focused more on the "publication independence" part of the criticism. Giving Google control over prioritizing a subset of the web, and letting them optimize for it, just gives them a better way to filter content. They seriously have enough power over the web as it is. The other criticisms about how it performs on iOS seem truly secondary, they could easily fix…

Gruber's first link ( that's not part of the quoted block or a link to the article he's quoting from ) going to a previous piece of his about the publication independence problems of going along with AMP.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#196

Post by obstinate »

coldtea wrote: post #128
notgood wrote: post #7

"publication independence"? Really? The man who is famous among other things for supporting the most closed ecosystem there is around: iOS, where a single company decides what apps are worth publishing and wish ones doesn't. Or does newspaper publication independence is really that more important than software publication independence. The irony is so clear that it's weird that he didn't even mention it. That genie i…

> "publication independence"? Really? The man who is famous among other things for supporting the most closed ecosystem there is around: iOS, where a single company decides what apps are worth publishing and wish ones doesn't. First of all, that's an ad hominem. If publication independence is important, then it remains important whether Gruber is hypocritical about it or not. Second, one might want apps to be curated…

Ad hominem arguments are chiefly problematic in pure logical discourse. In normal human rhetoric, the reputation of the person making the argument often factors in to whether listeners view the argument as truthful. It's not a problem to point out things that reduce the impact of reputation on rhetoric.

Essentially, any time a public figure says something, there's an implicit, "I have been truthful before, I am being truthful now," leading the statement. If someone's opinions are self-inconsistent, it's important to know that one can discount that implied statement.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#197

Post by MBCook »

tlrobinson wrote: post #171
evolve2k wrote: post #126

"it breaks the decade-old system-wide iOS behavior of being able to tap the status bar to scroll to the top of any scrollable view" Wait. I don't know of this feature. For example I attempted to tap my addresss bar on iOS but it just goes to change the address. How do I use this feature?

Double tap. I think it only works with one tap if the address bar is already open.

No, it's a single tap on the status bar (where the clock is). It works almost anywhere in iOS there's a long scrolling thing.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#198

Post by skywhopper »

notgood wrote: post #7

"publication independence"? Really? The man who is famous among other things for supporting the most closed ecosystem there is around: iOS, where a single company decides what apps are worth publishing and wish ones doesn't. Or does newspaper publication independence is really that more important than software publication independence. The irony is so clear that it's weird that he didn't even mention it. That genie i…

It's a shame you hijacked this thread with a critique of Gruber. There's no good argument that AMP is anything but a bad thing for publishers, and that has nothing to do with Gruber's support for Apple's approach to iOS.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#199

Post by quakeguy »

quakeguy wrote: post #194
rubyn00bie wrote: post #27

Ive forced myself to use Bing since google introduced AMP. Do I like it better than Google? No, I don't. But! I like not having google become my single source of content more than I dislike the slight drop in quality as a result of using Bing. I like the sites I go to, to have control over their content and being able to easily link to them. I think it's reprehensible for google to push this so relentlessly and beyon…

Use ddg.com.

no. dont use it, hands were faster than brain. the adress is ddg.gg. sorry.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#200

Post by obstinate »

MBCook wrote: post #28
blinkingled wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is Gruber we are talking about. He believes in openness when it suits Apple - AMP outputs standard HTML5 which Safari renders - it does its own scrolling but he doesn't quite like it. Google doesn't 'respect' that closed platform. On that 'crime' Gruber has this to say - "If I had my way, Mobile Safari would refuse to render AMP pages." You might have valid reasons not to use AMP but Gruber's are merely that…

AMP does NOT outperform HTML5 unless the HTML5 page is horribly designed and ridiculously bloated. But that can be fixed without Google's help. I'm not sure why your dismissive of the scrolling thing. Having something breaks the feel of the web browser is a really bad idea. Additionally he's completely right that it breaks other platform conventions that users expect to use. You can't use the share button, you can't…

> AMP does NOT outperform HTML5 unless the HTML5 page is horribly designed and ridiculously bloated. But that can be fixed without Google's help.

My personal experience demonstrates that the latter statement is not the case. People are indeed not making performant HTML5 without Google's help. It might be physically possible, but it's not actually happening.

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