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Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

theregister.co.uk

151–160 of 489 posts

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#151
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putting too much content in one place is dangerous for competition Considering we're on the precipice of a global authoritarian-populist cycle, there are non-market consequences to such concentration, too.

What makes you think we're on this precipice?

I'm surprised if you think otherwise.

WE are on the mercy of few SV companies and whatever they decide or push is our fate.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#152
post #95
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publishers already host their own AMP content. Google caches that content, but anyone can go to the publisher's URL and get it directly. Disclaimer: I work for Google and have some involvement with AMP.

If by "anyone" you mean "my tech savvy friends at google" then yes. I've seen many friends end up on a google-hosted AMP version of a webpage, unable to complete whatever ticket purchase etc they needed because whatever autoAMPifyer the origin site uses produced half broken pages. These users have no idea what AMP is or why the page doesn't work (or that they could have reached the origin site directly if they click…

Conceptually this isn't all that different from having a website that works in browser A but not B due to insufficient testing. Why did they not fix it?

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#153
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bing works fine. The more people use them, the better they'll get. DuckDuckGo mostly feeds off other engines, but is also good. I personally don't really recommend StartPage because you can't get away from Google's opinionated ranking on a site that provides Google results. But in short, use other search engines and they'll get better. Stop giving Google your search behavior, it's what they use to keep themselves on…

You realize Bing supports AMP and has an AMP cache as well, right? And if you use DDG, you're effectively using Bing. BTW, Cloudflare has an AMP cache as well....

I am aware Bing also supports AMP, but reducing Google's dominance in search data is key on preventing them from determining web design going forward.

DDG uses multiple sources, including Bing and Yandex. They also have their own efforts like their knowledge graph-type data features, which are open source and can be contributed to.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm missing something, it does: https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2010/04/using-site-speed-i...

You're right, I was imprecise in my brevity. Speed is definitely a signal in ranking. I'm mainly grousing at classes of results -- like the "Top Stories" carousel -- that are only available to AMP pages, and rather difficult to organically rank above. The AMP results also get more vertical real estate, flashy thumbnails, publisher logo images, etc. For example, searching for "Python" returns five pages of results whe…

Ah, yeah. Truth be told I realised after hitting 'send' that you may have meant that.

This being the case, I think even if building fast webpages may not allow one to circumvent AMP in the instant, it is still a strong way of removing much of the grounds for its existence.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#155
post #7

"publication independence"? Really? The man who is famous among other things for supporting the most closed ecosystem there is around: iOS, where a single company decides what apps are worth publishing and wish ones doesn't. Or does newspaper publication independence is really that more important than software publication independence. The irony is so clear that it's weird that he didn't even mention it. That genie i…

The key difference is that there are alternatives to iOS, which isn't even a majority share of the market. Google, by contrast, has a far larger share of the search engine market than Apple has of the mobile device market. That means it's more of a concern by default.

Except iOS is a captive market. Once you have owners of i-devices, switching requries capital investment and time moving to an alternate platform. You can exploit them heavily before they start leaving.

If we are talking about search, you can stop using google by typing bing.com or duckduckgo.com in your url bar any time you want, and every major browser supports changing the default search engine, even Chrome.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#156
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checkout Duck Duck Go, still not Google-level results, but it's still pretty good, and not Bing.

Duckduckgo is a lovely idea with abhorrent search results. Like, unusably bad results, at least to the extent that I'm a reasonably tech savvy user. I'm often searching for papers as a grad student, or typing things "close enough" and hoping Google figures it out for me etc. Duckduckgo cannot keep up. I love Bangs, I love the idea, but the search is nigh-useless. That said, I use StartPage, who have a contract I beli…

The results for localized stuff, e.g. a local store, are horrible. The results for complicated questions where the query is either not very specific or the page might not have all words, are also really bad. But if you have a good idea of what you're looking for, which is most of the time for me, it works very well.

At least it's honest about not having results whereas Google presents 5 billion, all of which are missing one of the three keywords (which it notes in a small, light grey text, which you only notice after the first three results were completely unrelated and you were wondering what went wrong).

For example, "new double c++" is the query I did most recently and in the top 3 there are 2 results that answer my question.

Making something up at random like "torrent clients" gives me as top hit the Wikipedia article "comparison of bittorrent clients", which is better than expected.

I can't seem to think of a vague query right now. "audio books" gives me sites with audio books; "psychology books" gives me articles of 'the best 50 psychology books' and such; and looking in my query history, "draw unicode" seems vague but the top hit (shapecatcher.com) is the one I was looking for.

Something localized then: "drankwinkel echt" (where Echt is a place and drankwinkel a liquor store) indeed gives terrible results. The store name, surprisingly, works though: "gal & gal echt" gives similar results to google.nl.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#157
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checkout Duck Duck Go, still not Google-level results, but it's still pretty good, and not Bing.

Duckduckgo is a lovely idea with abhorrent search results. Like, unusably bad results, at least to the extent that I'm a reasonably tech savvy user. I'm often searching for papers as a grad student, or typing things "close enough" and hoping Google figures it out for me etc. Duckduckgo cannot keep up. I love Bangs, I love the idea, but the search is nigh-useless. That said, I use StartPage, who have a contract I beli…

It has greatly improved over the years. I remember it being unusably bad when I first tried it in 2013, but today I only have to revert to Google once in a while. That being said, there are rare occasions when it fails spectacularly, bringing up totally irrelevant results for simple searches.

It seems to expect more precise queries, while Google is geared toward "close enough" searches. I've found that DDG is often preferable when I have an exact phrase in mind. Google is sometimes too helpful, correcting errors that are not actually errors and failing to take some queries literally enough.

The main issues I have with DDG are that it doesn't seem to prioritize recent results (which can be good, but usually isn't) and it fails at local results, which is basically by design.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#158
post #7

"publication independence"? Really? The man who is famous among other things for supporting the most closed ecosystem there is around: iOS, where a single company decides what apps are worth publishing and wish ones doesn't. Or does newspaper publication independence is really that more important than software publication independence. The irony is so clear that it's weird that he didn't even mention it. That genie i…

Well, it is Gruber we are talking about. He believes in openness when it suits Apple - AMP outputs standard HTML5 which Safari renders - it does its own scrolling but he doesn't quite like it. Google doesn't 'respect' that closed platform. On that 'crime' Gruber has this to say - "If I had my way, Mobile Safari would refuse to render AMP pages." You might have valid reasons not to use AMP but Gruber's are merely that…

"...it does its own scrolling but he doesn't quite like it."

Nothing should be doing its own scrolling. Everything should let the native scroll do its thing. Computers work for me and should work the way I expect. I expect the default native scroll.

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#159
post #138
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appstore-only policy is probably what has kept iOS from having any noteworthy large outbreak of malware. Unfortunately, the Darwin kernel as well as the various iOS frameworks have huge glaring security vulnerabilities patched in every minor update. A free-for-all unvetted code-exec option would open the floodgates for deceptive downloads and compromised iOS devices. Of course, it also makes good business sense f…

noteworthy large outbreak of malware Depends on how you define noteworthy and large. The xcode backdoor thing was in 500.000.000 downloads.

The xcode backdoor thing could have been much worse if iOS allowed sideloading for regular users. With the centralized appstore, most users having installed backdoored builds would be auto-updated to clean builds, current backdoored builds would be removed from sale, and new backdoored builds are likely to be blocked during uploads to itunesconnect/app review.

Also, don't forget the whole xcode backdoor fiasco happened because people were installing side-loaded xcode distributions instead of getting it from the mac store. So even where sideloading is and should remain allowed - on the mac - people will click big red "I know what I'm doing" buttons without knowing what they're doing. And that's for people who really should know what they're doing - developers!

Re: Kill Google AMP before it kills the web

#160
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out a seeming contradiction in an advocate's advocacy is not an ad hominem.

But rebutting an argument by attacking the character of the person making it, is.

Ad hominem attacks are considered logical fallacies only when they're used instead of a dismantling someone's arguments. If they're not making a sound argument at all, yet they continue to make it, there's no way to argue the argument, the problem is a character defect - so attacking the character of the person is logical in that case and accepted in debate.

Not all people are good. And not all smart people argue logically.

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