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Let employees work from home

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Re: Let employees work from home

#181

Post by mcgrath_sh »

JenMcCown wrote: post #130
darkstar999 wrote: post #107

I think these arguments are missing a big aspect of successful companies: culture. How can you have good office culture if everyone works from home?

You're missing the point that WFH doesn't mean "all employees must WFH full time". WFH is everything from "I gotta go home, the kid's sick" to "I'm going to WFH Wednesdays to concentrate", to "see y'all online!"

Exactly! That is what I have. I work from home about two days a week. The flexibility to work from home is what is golden. If my boss said "hey this week stay in the office," I am like can do. This also lets me visit inlaws and the like without using up loads of vacation. I don't have to worry about handling tedious things on weekends and it frees up my commute to do things like cut the grass. It is a win win.

Re: Let employees work from home

#182

Post by GVIrish »

maxxxxx wrote: post #60
Veen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow your logic. The vast majority of businesses aren't like Google or Facebook. The vast majority of the nation's GDP isn't created by companies like Google and Facebook. Hundreds of thousands of businesses are the size of Automattic, Basecamp, or smaller. Those businesses employ the the vast majority of workers. Therefore, Basecamp and Automattic are excellent role models. Unequivocal success does not mea…

I am a big proponent of remote work but I think it's harder to manage a remote company. Automattic and Basecamp have excellent people in leadership who have a clear understanding of their company. A lot of mediocre middleman managers in the typical company aren't capable of setting expectations and evaluating work results. You need very good workers and leaders in a remote company.

> A lot of mediocre middleman managers in the typical company aren't capable of setting expectations and evaluating work results.

This is one of the key problems. It's not that remote work doesn't work, it's that a bunch of mediocre middle managers only have the "butts in seats" metric to fall back on to answer whether work is getting done.

If a manager is properly tracking progress and managing the pipeline, people working remotely shouldn't be a problem.

Re: Let employees work from home

#183

Post by dasmoth »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #115
schtitt wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious about the implied link between social-ness and creativity.. care to expound? I can think of several individuals who are highly creative but who prefer being alone.

> Curious about the implied link between social-ness and creativity They are linked in that I think they are both related to working in an office. - Social interactive as it relates to an office environment is fairly obvious - As far as creativity... that requires more explanation. That was more a response to people saying things like "I can get more code done working from home"... as a manager who also still codes (…

I am paying you to solve problems not write code.

Really glad to hear this, it's something that people seem to easily lose sight off

If the problem gets solved I don't care if it is 10000 lines of code or 10. Solving problems takes creativity. And for many people, creativity is enhanced by being around other people

That may be true for some people, but it's diametrically the opposite for others. Partly just pure personality, but I'd also argue that working with others biases towards "fine grained" solutions where your contribution dovetails with other pieces. Working alone for non-trivial increments of time makes it easier to step back and think about whether there's a single piece that can solve the whole problem.

Finally, the specific case of WFH often (not always) makes it easier to step away from the computer for an hour or two when you're stuck, perhaps prepare lunch or even go for a walk. That's a far more fertile setup for inspiration to strike than sitting in front of a blank text file.

Re: Let employees work from home

#184

Post by sqeaky »

tyingq wrote: post #162
sqeaky wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does working from home make someone more replaceable than someone working from an office? I would think in most IT positions the thing that makes one least replaceable is their value to the team. If you constantly provide in the form of More code written or servers maintained because you can focus better then you could be more valuable. I don't think working from home directly relates to values, and I think argum…

You compete with a larger pool when working 100% from home. Both skillwise and costwise.

That is an interesting take on it. I am comfortable with that, but I can see why many might not be.

I will have to think more on that to see all of the ramifications. Immediately, I can see how it looks like businesses might try to hire devs from inexpensive overseas shops, but I know why employers rarely do that a second time. Then there are the really expensive devs who are clearly some of the best in their field, but that is so expensive few shops would consider it.

as an aside, I suspect working from home as a cultural shift would allow some real estate prices to normalize. There would be less need to move many people into very expensive areas.

Re: Let employees work from home

#185

Post by throwaway47861 »

korzun wrote: post #142
bitL wrote: post #117

The crab mentality here is really appalling :-( I work remotely for 6+ years; during that time I created some unique algorithms, traveled around the world, met diverse types of people giving me unexpected inspirations from which business benefited tremendously (unique stuff nobody else has). I have the big 4 companies trying to contact me all the time if I wouldn't want to work for them, however seeing inside e.g. cr…

You are an exception. I was a huge advocate for working from home because I would get things done and end up saving two hours of commute. Your perception of this approach changes relatively quickly in a managerial role. If you are shaving 1-2 hours off your commute, then the overall output should be in line with whatever it was in the office. I probably met two other engineers that kept that in check.

So your answer is micro-management and making people fake activity during the mandatory 8h? You're not a good manager if that's the case.

There are courses that teach people how to focus on results and deliverables.

Re: Let employees work from home

#186

Post by pdimitar »

wayn3 wrote: post #168
korzun wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are an exception. I was a huge advocate for working from home because I would get things done and end up saving two hours of commute. Your perception of this approach changes relatively quickly in a managerial role. If you are shaving 1-2 hours off your commute, then the overall output should be in line with whatever it was in the office. I probably met two other engineers that kept that in check.

I'm the first person to admit that if I was to run a company, I wouldn't allow people to work remotely only. But as an employee, there's no way I'm going to drag my ass into an office ever again on a regular basis, when I can just as well work from exotic beachfront homes. This is going to work out just like companies who cut compensation work out. You'll be left with the mediocre engineers and everyone who's able to…

> This is going to work out just like companies who cut compensation work out. You'll be left with the mediocre engineers and everyone who's able to choose to work remotely will eventually do so. If you don't permit that, you're left with the chaff.

This has to be the best comment in this thread.

I am observing this phenomena lately and I gotta say, I feel rather good about seeing the more backwards employers struggle already.

They really have no idea it's the programmer's market.

Re: Let employees work from home

#187

Post by pdimitar »

jasode wrote: post #7

>Objections to work from home fall apart Essays from workers like Jen McCown isn't going to work. What works is to have massively successful businesses that beat the competition because their employees work remotely . Since no multi-billion dollar business has demonstrated that specific cause & effect, the idea doesn't gain traction. Yes, businesses like Basecamp and Automattic have remote workers but I'm talking abo…

What matters for the manager is if the remote employees are bringing the same value and productivity compared to when they were working on-site.

They don't have to prove anything else beyond that.

You're talking about business succeeding because their employees work remote. Sounds like you mean "cofounders", not "employees" however. Employees are often times not directly related to the company's bottom line. Sure if I finish this project on time the company might win over a customer, which is good. But from then on, my employer's income from the customer comes from support, PR, upselling, business negotiations etc. All things I can't even remotely touch while I am in a corporation.

Re: Let employees work from home

#188

Post by pdimitar »

dsacco wrote: post #42
Veen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I was responding to the claims of the parent comment that stated we need massive businesses to shift to remote work to prove that it's workable. I was only comparing on size, so I think the argument is sound. As for other factors, of course there are lots of companies and roles for whom remote working won't work, but there are certainly more it would work for than currently allow it - and many of the reason…

Well, look at it this way. You and I might have our minds changed by insightful essays, but looking at the broader business landscape, which of the following appears more likely to persuade an organization to consider changes? 1) A collection of insightful essays discussing the merits of remote working for amenable cultures, written by people who work at companies that basically only our ingroup is very familiar with…

As another commenter very adequately put it: if a high-quality engineer can work remotely from a beach-house, they will. And the companies who are adamant in ther on-site policy will be left with the more mediocre engineers.

And I already seen it happen several times in my home country.

Re: Let employees work from home

#189

Post by wayn3 »

pdimitar wrote: post #186
wayn3 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the first person to admit that if I was to run a company, I wouldn't allow people to work remotely only. But as an employee, there's no way I'm going to drag my ass into an office ever again on a regular basis, when I can just as well work from exotic beachfront homes. This is going to work out just like companies who cut compensation work out. You'll be left with the mediocre engineers and everyone who's able to…

> This is going to work out just like companies who cut compensation work out. You'll be left with the mediocre engineers and everyone who's able to choose to work remotely will eventually do so. If you don't permit that, you're left with the chaff. This has to be the best comment in this thread. I am observing this phenomena lately and I gotta say, I feel rather good about seeing the more backwards employers struggl…

I do mostly contract work.

I have a line item called "distress surcharge" that is charged to clients who want to bother me with being in the office. Effectively doubles my rate. Helps them quit being silly.

Re: Let employees work from home

#190

Post by pdimitar »

dasmoth wrote: post #172
Morgawr wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I prefer it, I get more done, it cuts out the commute time (which includes a lot more than actual time in the car), it lets me work on things at night when I want to... Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you. I don't prefer it but I understand where you are coming from and I think you should be allowed to do so if you find it's better for your productivity. I find I prefer working from home when writing de…

whereas if I am developing I prefer a more customized setup with multiple screens and stuff so I have that better at work than at home. That may be true at Google, but there are a bunch of supposedly high-tech companies which are happy to give people seriously cruddy workstations. Even though my home setup is actually a 5-year-old monitor on a standing desk I bodged from an off-cut of worktop, it's dramatically nicer…

Off-topic: maybe it's time to abandon ship? A company relying on programmers / devops cheaping out on good workstations is a serious red flag.
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