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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#61

Post by tyingq »

knownothing wrote: post #43
tyingq wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most sources I can find say that the vast majority of heroin in the US comes from Mexico and South America.

The poppies used for heroin production can be grown in South America but most of it comes from Asia.

That's not what I see looking at reasonable sources. See https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_20... for example.

The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. Canada, for example, gets most of it's heroin via Afghanistan.

The size of the lines in this map from the above mentioned resource is relative to the actual production source...where the poppies are, and where they end up as heroin. Note the fat lines from the south, and the thin one from the east.

http://i.imgur.com/hvYXYeQ.png

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#62

Post by Digory »

Russ Roberts' Econtalk podcast had a stunningly good interview with Sam Quinones about the opioid epidemic.

I am fairly libertarian on many things, but this is not a simple case of prohibition run amok. Heroin/opioid addiction is close to a loss of free will, aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies.

Really fascinating, sad, and difficult stuff.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.htm...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#63

Post by graphitezepp »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

I am pretty much with you. To add,

1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better.

2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be.

3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this.

Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#64

Post by kogepathic »

prbuckley wrote: post #59
kogepathic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. The heroin epidemic is the worst in many traditionally republican states. I think you may find there is more bipartisan support for fixing the heroin problem than there is consensus around hot button topics like abortion.

> You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians.

You're making the assumption that their families have the resources to pay for their treatment. Nearly half of Americans are one pay cheque away from not being able to make ends meet. [0] [1] [2]

Here's a poverty map of America: http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/01/05/poverty-map/

[0] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/half-of-americans-are-despe...

[1] http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/12/pf/americans-lack-of-savings...

[2] http://nypost.com/2016/09/27/why-even-half-the-middle-class-...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#65

Post by AlwaysRock »

meddlepal wrote: post #6
diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

There's also a massive support group for alcoholics. I'd bet that if you discover someone stopped drinking because they were/are a alcoholic you wouldnt bat a eye. If you found out they were addicted to heroin you would have a very different view of them.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#66

Post by graphitezepp »

pm90 wrote: post #39
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

Just to add one more thing to this excellent comment: legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs, which might actually help us understand them better. e.g. we know very well exactly how much alcohol is considered "safe" or causing least damage; but we still don't know about the long term effects of e.g. MJ.

Psychology of drug use is rare and hard to find. We need to do a better job studying these dangerous drugs to learn to help addicts better.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#67

Post by prbuckley »

meddlepal wrote: post #6
diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

Part of the problem of prohibition is that it drives up the potency of drugs which leads to the situation where you get fentanyl instead of heroin. This effect was coined the "iron law of prohibition" by economist Richard Cowan. More powerful drugs lead to stronger addictions and more accidental over doses.

Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_prohibition

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#68

Post by pavel_lishin »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that.

If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it?

(fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#69

Post by graphitezepp »

enraged_camel wrote: post #32
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

I think you only have to compare the Prohibition America with today's America to understand why the current system is much more preferable to former. When alcohol was illegal, we had gangsters like Al Capone. They built their empires and profited massively from illicit activity (not just smuggling but also violent crimes) at the expense of the American government and people. They also didn't pay a single dime in taxe…

It is pretty disturbing to me we as a society have yet to learn the prohibition lesson. I believe that sensationalize of Al Capone and gangster culture in media leads people to not thinking the same stuff is happening today because they don't see shootouts and police chases in the street.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#70

Post by prbuckley »

kogepathic wrote: post #64
prbuckley wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. The heroin epidemic is the worst in many traditionally republican states. I think you may find there is more bipartisan support for fixing the heroin problem than there is consensus around hot button topics like abortion.

> You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. You're making the assumption that their families have the resources to pay for their treatment. Nearly half of Americans are one pay cheque away from not being able to make ends meet. [0] [1] [2] Here's a poverty map of America: http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/01/05/poverty-map/ [0] http://www.mark…

I am suggesting people will put political pressure on the government to help pay for treatment as part of the solution. As others here have suggested that if drugs were legalized the tax revenue could fund things like this.
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