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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#51

Post by eberkund »

kogepathic wrote: post #41
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

>Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it.

Taxes on the drugs themselves would probably more than cover it.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#52

Post by noer »

DanBC wrote: post #35
klibertp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that legal drugs will cause harm. The GP specifically said to "tax them and spend the money on rehab and education", so I assume he did recognize this.

That approach doesn't seem to have worked so well for alcohol.

The tax revenue isn't spent on rehab though

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#53

Post by padobson »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #29
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

> How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? It doesn't. It's partly an acknowledgement that, "It's really none of your business what people put in their own bodies." You're implicitly saying, "I don't like the fact that you are addicted to X substance or action Y, so I think that gives me the moral justification to lock you in a literal cage for a very long time." Legalizing drugs is about not putting people in j…

Legalization benefits addicts in other ways - like safer environments for consumption[0].

Addicts that are presently shooting up in basements and bathroom stalls and under bridges can go to a place where they can receive an injection of a known dosage under supervision of medical professionals.

I'm all for fighting addiction, but that's a complicated and expensive fight. Fighting the crime and fighting overdoses, equally destructive problems to addiction, are much simpler fixes: legalize it.

[0]http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/safe-injecti...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#54

Post by xiaoma »

Pigo wrote: post #26
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

People throw out legalization because they're used to the marijuana debate. But how do you legalize a drug like fentanyl? How do you pretend you're here to protect and serve when you legalize a drug that seems like it was designed to kill people in a single use? We need to rethink the laws, and have some effective changes lead by people who understand the problem and have nothing to gain financially. But there's neve…

>"How do you pretend you're here to protect and serve when you legalize a drug that seems like it was designed to kill people in a single use?"

This is a different, adjacent issue. However, it's not impossible to make a case for allowing people to purchase lethal substances. On the contrary, there are compelling arguments that people should have the freedom to choose death rather than be forced to continue living.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#55

Post by thearn4 »

weeksie wrote: post #22

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like the US goes on this uppers/downers cycle. Of course I'm probably seeing patterns where there are none, but we had heroin in the seventies, cocaine/crack in the eighties, heroin was back in the 90s, meth in the 00s, heroin in the teens.

I hadn't noticed that pattern, but it is an interesting one.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#56

Post by Fricken »

knownothing wrote: post #40
Fricken wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opium production was virtually eliminated in Afghanistan before we invaded, by the Taliban, whom we thanked for doing such great work. We also granted Afghanistan $43 million to help farmers no longer profiting off poppy fields through a drought. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-pop...

Right. Which is exactly what I said. Production has been on the rise since 2001.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was embellishing.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#57

Post by dave_sullivan »

Pigo wrote: post #26
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

People throw out legalization because they're used to the marijuana debate. But how do you legalize a drug like fentanyl? How do you pretend you're here to protect and serve when you legalize a drug that seems like it was designed to kill people in a single use? We need to rethink the laws, and have some effective changes lead by people who understand the problem and have nothing to gain financially. But there's neve…

> But how do you legalize a drug like fentanyl?

No one is doing fentanyl by choice.

People are doing fentanyl on accident because it's in the heroin they're buying on the street. This really drove it home for me: https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fa...

That being said, I still don't think we should put people in jail for using it. Fentanyl is known to kill you. So is rat poison. Buyer beware.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#58

Post by kogepathic »

eberkund wrote: post #51
kogepathic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

>Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. Taxes on the drugs themselves would probably more than cover it.

> Taxes on the drugs themselves would probably more than cover it.

And you seriously think politicians will use this new revenue source for the treatment of addicts?

I predict they'll push another tax cut that benefits their major donors.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#59

Post by prbuckley »

kogepathic wrote: post #41
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. The heroin epidemic is the worst in many traditionally republican states. I think you may find there is more bipartisan support for fixing the heroin problem than there is consensus around hot button topics like abortion.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#60

Post by prbuckley »

kogepathic wrote: post #41
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. The heroin epidemic is the worst in many traditionally republican states. I think you may find there is more bipartisan support for fixing the heroin problem than there is consensus around hot button topics like abortion.
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