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One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

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111–120 of 223 posts

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#111

I want to say this first: I love net neutrality and I support it 100%. That said, I think this battle will go on forever until either - We have a decentralized network anybody can plug into without ISPs (mesh net) or - Cities build their own fiber infrastructure (or 4G towers for rural areas) and rent it out to companies. Cable/DSL become a thing of the past, and you connect via radio/public wifi/direct fiber. This b…

> The "let the market decide" shills don't seem to understand there's no market.

Oh, trust me, we understand that very well. What we want to do is expand competition by making it easier to compete. This largest barrier to competition at this time is local municipalities, which is a good place for the FCC to step in and tell them to back off and let the ISPs install their fiber.

I support the FCC regulating governmental entities, not so much private ones. Net neutrality should, if enforced by government, be legislated, not initiated by a regulatory agency. This issue was brought up by people on both sides of the issue for different reasons. On the pro- side because they new a regime change would just undo it, and on the con- side because they thought such a large change was unfit for unelected bureaucrats to decide.

The idea that we should introduce more regulation in order to fix bad historic policy is like government asking for a temporary tax. A long time ago my state asked for a new temporary tax for school renovations. Guess what, that tax never went away. It's the same thing with regulations. They just keep piling up.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#112
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well not in the EU https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/open-internet-... .

That law can be repealed if Europeans aren't vigilant; nothing makes the EU naturally immune to right-wing, pro-corporate swings.

Yes but no.

One of the reasons the UK left EU because it was not allowed to have different laws for EU immigrants and locals - for benefits for example.

Europe choose values over money. They - Merkel - may not be the best people in the world but some moves are very commendable.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#113
post #108
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar effort was just killed in Boulder a couple of weeks ago, by Comcast and others.

What were the Comcast shills' arguments? It seems like a local politician could run on internet as a utility and win if publicized correctly.

"Mayor #{city_official} wants to raise YOUR TAXES to line the pockets of their friends at #{local_construction_firm}. Call your alderman and tell him to vote NO on Proposition #{proposition_id}!"

"Mayor #{city_official} wants to pass JOB KILLING REGULATIONS that could put #{comcast_employees.count} of your neighbors out of work! Sign this petition opposing Proposition #{proposition_id}!"

"Mayor #{city_official} wants the GOVERNMENT to take over YOUR INTERNET. Vote NO on Proposition #{proposition_id} to keep your internet free!"

It's not that hard if you don't care about fairness or accuracy.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#114
post #78
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like an implementation-bound constraint. Many technologies start out unacceptable for certain uses and mature to competency.

Adding lots of hops is going to slow down the connection. That's a limitation of the speed of light.

On the other end, with a mesh network, your packets are less likely to go through the whole state/continent to reach a node in the same town as you.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#115

Is there any evidence anywhere that non-neutral net actually makes money for ISPs ?

Sure, the incident that caused the FCC to write the Net Neutrality rules.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/186576-verizon-caught-...

Basically the ISPs held one service for ransom by slowing down the traffic enough to make it run poorly until the service paid the demands.

We can probably expect to see more of this in the future. Amazon and Google should probably start setting aside a warchest for the inevitable shakedowns.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#116

Where is Apple, Google, and Microsoft on this? What is the point of an app store if I can't use 90% of the apps on it? What the hell do I need a search engine for if there's only a few websites to search? Why would I use a computer at all if it just serves me the same garbage as a TV? Come on, throw your fucking weight around, jesus...

They were there: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/26/internet-firms-are-winding-up...

Just as they were last time: https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/7/5692578/tech-coalition-cha...

It's just that this time, it simply wasn't enough.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. While I would prefer a market in which we let competition decide how it goes, as it prevents the government from getting involved, there is no market for the majority of Americans. I moved from MD to PA to now CA and every place I go I have had zero alternatives to Comcast. Zero. AT&T told me they would have to run lines to my house at some insane cost (I think it was like $20k or something? It's been many y…

A year or two ago I would have disagreed and argued that NN is the only way, but recently I've realized that we're just going to keep ping-ponging between regulation and deregulation until the real issue is fixed: ISPs in the US have a stranglehold. So if we actually get a viable marketplace for internet in most places in the US (internet treated like a public utility rented out to private companies), I would concede…

Open access rules like the ones that exist on phone lines could do the job. The problem is that we got those rules on phone lines by having the government heavily subsidize them back in the Ma Bell days. The cable and fiber networks were much less subsidized so it's a hard argument to make.

The ship has already sailed on treating broadband as a utility like it should be. Muni broadband projects can help, but they're few and far between, plus they suffer from tremendous political pushback from the well connected incumbents.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I'm at in the US, we have a Public Utility District that's "owned" by the city (top position is an elected position too). They've run fiber everywhere and leased it to local ISPs. I can get gigabit for under $90/mo. Lowest tier is 100x10 for under $50. One of our local ISPs even built a real nice wireless mesh network with a fiber "backbone". You can get low-latency 35x2 service way up in the hills of nowhere.…

Great to see that these projects are popping up all over --- I'm also in a town in the US with municipal fiber. I get bidirectional gigabit for $50/month (early adopter --- the normal rate is $100/month). Our ISP is also vocally pro-net neutrality.

Similar in SF with Monkeybrains -- for a one-time setup fee of $2500 about two years ago, I've been paying $35/mth for 600/600 microwave internet. They're also super pro-net neutrality. They even peer with SFMIX, a not-for-profit hipster internet exchange. The normal rate is $35/mth for 50/50.

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#119
People forget sometimes that the ARPAnet was a closed Internet. And it didn't have some of the problems of todays internet like spam for that same reason. (you could be kicked off) And the thing that lived alongside of it was FIDOnet and Usenet which exploited another closed network (the switched network service known as the telephone network) to run a parallel and notionally "open" internet.

Then (as now) the challenge was that for long distance communication you needed someone who was paying for that infrastructure. The way it typically worked was that a big company like Xerox which nominally had a coast to coast telephone system that was being maintained for corporate reasons but had excess capacity, was notionally "ok" with a couple of engineers creating a 'tunnel' between the west coast and the east coast. Locally people would use their 'free calling zone' to call.

We have companies that have their own wide area networks, and we have things like software defined radios and ISM bands that allow for nominally low cost 'hops'. Is it time to dig up the old Usenet architecture?

Re: One Step Closer to a Closed Internet

#120

I want to say this first: I love net neutrality and I support it 100%. That said, I think this battle will go on forever until either - We have a decentralized network anybody can plug into without ISPs (mesh net) or - Cities build their own fiber infrastructure (or 4G towers for rural areas) and rent it out to companies. Cable/DSL become a thing of the past, and you connect via radio/public wifi/direct fiber. This b…

I'm very interested in and motivated towards mounting an attempt to bring munifiber to my city.

Few things have been bugging me though: what vectors do ISPs compete upon if they're all renting the lines at the same price? How would one be able to offer similar speeds for less price? What value-added services can they possibly offer?

If someone could answer these questions for me, then I'll have the ammo to seriously consider bringing this to my local legislators. I've tried searching the internet and I can't find any detailed pieces, they all speak at a high, fluffy level.

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