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Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

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Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#51

Post by mi100hael »

clavalle wrote: post #30
wgyn wrote: post #25

> “There is one and only one social responsibility of business,” the economist Milton Friedman famously wrote in 1962. And that is “to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits.” It's strange to me that Friedman is viewed (at least by economists and "business" folk) as a paragon of logical reasoning and empiricism, all the while his views reek so strongly of ideology. There are tons…

It is a beautiful example of dogma. It has some meaning but can be bent and molded to fit almost any argument. The obvious argument, especially in Etsy's case is 'well, this works for the short term but can mean no profits in the long term as you commoditize your business and what makes a company like Etsy, Etsy fades into market oblivion.' To which the next statement is 'Oh. Well, Friedman meant all expected profits…

I disagree. Friedman's statement isn't a justification for decisions and it doesn't determine which specific decisions are right or wrong. It determines which justifications are right or wrong.

"We made this decision because it improves environmental sustainability" may or may not be a prudent decision depending on whether the justification of environmental sustainability correlates positively or negatively with financial success.

Clearly running your business into the ground through over-spending, even if it generates modest short-term results, is a poor application of Friedman's idea.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#52

Post by RugnirViking »

cowpewter wrote: post #24
chiph wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a look at Storenvy's store owner's agreement. There's several exclusions in there that would be problematic, such as: > Any product containing any hazardous or dangerous material including mercury or any product whose use is regulated by any law in any jurisdiction. I get what they're trying to do, but that's pretty broad https://support.storenvy.com/customer/portal/articles/93987-...

By "internet circles I run in" I'm talking about the ball-jointed doll hobby, so probably 90% of the products we're talking about are handmade doll clothes and wigs. The dolls themselves are usually made of polyurethane resin, which I don't think could be considered harmful once it's cured. Most of the other hand-crafted things I would consider checking Etsy for first are things like jewelry and pottery. Unless you'r…

> any product whose use is regulated by any law in any jurisdiction.

That doesn't mean say product which is banned in your jurisdiction.

It means any product that is regulated (as in, there is any law at all governing its use) in any jurisdiction.

Like for example plastic is normally pretty harmless, but maybe theres a law in Portugal saying there can't be a certain amount of plastic in soft drinks and now its restricted

IANAL but I thought this wording was interesting and took it to its logical extremes.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#53

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

binarymax wrote: post #35
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #6

The focus on eternally positive second derivatives is the cancer of American capitalism.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, since you have an interesting opinion, but in this case Etsy decided to play the game. They could have stayed private and done whatever they wanted without worrying about 'shareholder value'. They chose to IPO, they are now owned by the market. If you can't play the shareholder game then don't go public.

Destroying a profitable, growing or mature company in pursuit of greater second derivatives isn't pro-shareholder -- it's pro a particular kind of investment strategy which views returns through a particular lens. I believe it's deeply myopic.

It's a Wall St myth that quarterly returns are the best thing to optimize for generating shareholder value or that executives are obligated to do so.

It's the kind of capitalism that tells you the most efficient way to heat your house is to set it on fire.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#54

Post by athenot »

malandrew wrote: post #39
MichaelGG wrote: post #27

Bizarre. I've only tried to use Etsy once, figuring it'd be a great place to get some sort of unique jewellery as a gift. It's filled with junk, both of the super-manufactured kind and of the "modern art" kind (someone glues 2 pieces of crap together and wants $500.) I haven't gone back, though I did enjoy the Regretsy blog while it was up. >Etsy’s insistence on running its own servers rather than using cloud-based s…

Yup, everytime I hear someone complain about capitalism I eyeroll because they clearly aren't "woke" enough to realize that capitalism is the reason they can remain blissfully ignorant of how capitalism supports their blissful ignorance. Capitalism isn't without its bugaboos, but the wholesale rejection I hear people making can only come from a place of ignorance.

I directly benefit from capitalism in my current occupation.

Yet I'm also aware that it dehumanizes anyone who can't produce value within that model.

Therefore I support attempts to make it inclusive of all human beings, even if that means making the model "less ideal" or "less pure". I find it strange that we somehow have come to value assets over humans. Yes, that means I will loose out on some of the value I earn and I'm ok with that.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#55

Post by Exuma »

vosper wrote: post #33
Exuma wrote: post #16

The entitled employee comments at the bottom made me literally groan. Everyone bemoaning facts of life, it's not like what they did was a surprise or unjust. If your job title is "Senior internal paper waste management analysis director" then you shouldn't be surprised when you get canned.

The only comments I saw were one from an unnamed staffer, at the end, and two from software engineers. What about these comments (from people who've just lost their jobs, bear in mind) seems entitled to you? I just see people who agreed with the principles and ideology of the company they worked for. > Jason Wong, a former engineer, urged his ex-colleagues to “fight” for “all the sellers who rely on you, for the valu…

Well for one, the part about "fighting" anything... just appreciate your job experience the company gave you and move on.

"For all the things you love about working there"... so basically fight for your overly cushy job where you were overpaid to organize paperclips, because of untracked spending. I'm being somewhat facetious but you get the point. I also have no problems with cushy or overly cushy, more power to you if you find something like that, it's awesome... just don't be an entitled goomba when things end.

"Allergic to capitalism". This is just stupid. You're allergic for a company to cut their spending to not-insane levels?

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#56

Post by cowpewter »

RugnirViking wrote: post #52
cowpewter wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "internet circles I run in" I'm talking about the ball-jointed doll hobby, so probably 90% of the products we're talking about are handmade doll clothes and wigs. The dolls themselves are usually made of polyurethane resin, which I don't think could be considered harmful once it's cured. Most of the other hand-crafted things I would consider checking Etsy for first are things like jewelry and pottery. Unless you'r…

> any product whose use is regulated by any law in any jurisdiction. That doesn't mean say product which is banned in your jurisdiction. It means any product that is regulated (as in, there is any law at all governing its use) in any jurisdiction. Like for example plastic is normally pretty harmless, but maybe theres a law in Portugal saying there can't be a certain amount of plastic in soft drinks and now its restri…

True, the wording is pretty vague. I assume it's a CYA-clause for Storenvy so they're not liable if someone sells something illegal somewhere. IANAL either though, so who knows.

It looks like Etsy's policy is a little more explicit about it being the seller's job to make sure whatever it is is legal wherever it is.

https://www.etsy.com/legal/prohibited

> Due to the potential harm caused by hazardous materials, as well as complex legal regulations surrounding such materials, including shipping restrictions, hazardous materials are prohibited on Etsy

Etsy doesn't define "hazardous materials" in their policy though, just provides a few examples.

> Our marketplaces provides a direct connection between buyers and sellers around the world. If you buy or sell an item from another country, or if you enter into a transaction with someone across international borders, you are responsible for complying with international trade restrictions, including restrictions put into place by the US Office of Foreign Assets Control (“OFAC”), regardless of your location.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#57

Post by sametmax »

MichaelGG wrote: post #27

Bizarre. I've only tried to use Etsy once, figuring it'd be a great place to get some sort of unique jewellery as a gift. It's filled with junk, both of the super-manufactured kind and of the "modern art" kind (someone glues 2 pieces of crap together and wants $500.) I haven't gone back, though I did enjoy the Regretsy blog while it was up. >Etsy’s insistence on running its own servers rather than using cloud-based s…

The cloud is very, very expensive. If you want low cost, you do your own servers for anything under 20 nodes. Which, given the power of modern machines and with unmethered bandwidth, will take you to the millions of user easily.

I have setup a streaming website with 500k/d visitors, and it runs on 7 servers for 2000$ a month give or take.

That's very, very cheap compared to GAE or AWS.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#58

Post by binarymax »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #53
binarymax wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, since you have an interesting opinion, but in this case Etsy decided to play the game. They could have stayed private and done whatever they wanted without worrying about 'shareholder value'. They chose to IPO, they are now owned by the market. If you can't play the shareholder game then don't go public.

Destroying a profitable, growing or mature company in pursuit of greater second derivatives isn't pro-shareholder -- it's pro a particular kind of investment strategy which views returns through a particular lens. I believe it's deeply myopic. It's a Wall St myth that quarterly returns are the best thing to optimize for generating shareholder value or that executives are obligated to do so. It's the kind of capitalis…

The strategy indeed may not have been adding external shareholder value. In fact that is probably not the point of most IPOs (the point is usually to raise money to grow the business and/or increase wealth of the owners). I doubt the intent was to destroy the company, because that results in people losing money.

I certainly agree that the boost-short-term-profit-to-get-rich-then-bail is deeply unethical (and sometimes illegal).

However, "doing it right", and using the added wealth to grow the business in the long term will benefit everyone (founders, shareholders, consumers, and the economy), and is one of the BEST parts of capitalism.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#59

Post by etsythrowaway »

As someone who has been here for >= 6 months, I welcome this change. There's an incredible amount of bloat here, including the datacenter we run to the managers we have. I'm hoping these top level changes can help bring a more accountable culture. Btw, people make fun of #blameless internally now because it literally means you can be sloppy and get away with it.

Re: Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

#60

Post by kgwgk »

valuearb wrote: post #48
kgwgk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "they"? At the time of the IPO, more than half of the shares were held by external investors.

Didn't have to be. They didn't have to sell stock privately either.

They had to if they wanted to spend someone else's money...
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