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Kotlin Is Better

steve-yegge.blogspot.com

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Re: Kotlin Is Better

#151

Post by twoquestions »

noir_lord wrote: post #145
barrkel wrote: post #19

Other language built around IDE support: Delphi. The compiler was built with callbacks to provide code completion; it runs in process, as a DLL, as part of the IDE. No accident that Hejlsberg also design C#, and innovated further with TypeScript's language server. He wrote the original Turbo Pascal (IDE + Compiler in the same executable) in assembler, so he's been building IDE + language combos all his life.

My all time favourite languages are (in descending order), Delphi, Turbo Pascal and C#. It's not a co-incidence that I moved to TypeScript recently and am absolutely loving it , it feels like JS but engineered.

Typescript is nice, I just wish it inferred types as well as F#.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#152

Post by bpicolo »

skrowl wrote: post #143
bpicolo wrote: post #20

I've started to come around on a similar thought recently, after a few years avoiding static typing in python. I've been toying with C# specifically. C# with visual studio is, I think, the most productive environment I've come across in programming. It's ergonomically sound, straightforward, and the IDE protects me from all sorts of relevant errors. Steve mentioned Intellij is a bit slower than he'd hope typing somet…

If you know C# you don't really need Kotlin. You can write windows, windows universal, web, linux console, Android and iOS apps, all native, and all in C#.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Dotnet is still just getting started on Linux, meanwhile the Java ecosystem is insanely mature on Linux. Fwiw, I have been writing dotnetcore lately, and enjoying it, but it definitely doesn't match the java ecosystem in terms of library maturity. Because of Google/Netflix/etc, Java on Linux is a really interesting beast

Not to mention that toying with another language is not such a complicated endeavor once you're 5-10 languages in. The great thing about C# and Kotlin is they've been good at adopting features from other languages that are already good and familiar, so picking them up is generally super easy.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#153

Post by UK-AL »

_ivvf wrote: post #147
bpicolo wrote: post #20

I've started to come around on a similar thought recently, after a few years avoiding static typing in python. I've been toying with C# specifically. C# with visual studio is, I think, the most productive environment I've come across in programming. It's ergonomically sound, straightforward, and the IDE protects me from all sorts of relevant errors. Steve mentioned Intellij is a bit slower than he'd hope typing somet…

I developed at a Windows-centric shop for several years using C# and Visual Studio, and I can personally attest, at least in 2013, that stock Visual Studio is pretty far behind Java IDEs in its capabilities. At the time everyone I talked to recommended I get my manager to get me a copy of ReSharper, but it wasn't in our team's budget. At least in 2013, here's where I remember C# IDE support was lacking: * No automati…

I know that Roslyn the C# compiler visual studio taps into defiantly does support incremental compilation.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#154

Post by Singletoned »

seanwilson wrote: post #87
bpicolo wrote: post #20

I've started to come around on a similar thought recently, after a few years avoiding static typing in python. I've been toying with C# specifically. C# with visual studio is, I think, the most productive environment I've come across in programming. It's ergonomically sound, straightforward, and the IDE protects me from all sorts of relevant errors. Steve mentioned Intellij is a bit slower than he'd hope typing somet…

> Changing one parameter or type on a class or function to refactor, and then just following the chain of compiler errors, reaching the end, and seeing that everything just works exactly how you want it to was a big eye opener to me. Yup, "following the chain of compiler errors" mostly makes refactoring straightforward. Dynamic typing is fine when the codebase is small enough to keep it all in your head so you know w…

We tend to use tests for just this case. You change anything you want, then see which tests break, and fix all the places.

I definitely agree that dynamic typing doesn't scale as well as static typing, though.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#155

Post by braveo »

seanwilson wrote: post #87
bpicolo wrote: post #20

I've started to come around on a similar thought recently, after a few years avoiding static typing in python. I've been toying with C# specifically. C# with visual studio is, I think, the most productive environment I've come across in programming. It's ergonomically sound, straightforward, and the IDE protects me from all sorts of relevant errors. Steve mentioned Intellij is a bit slower than he'd hope typing somet…

> Changing one parameter or type on a class or function to refactor, and then just following the chain of compiler errors, reaching the end, and seeing that everything just works exactly how you want it to was a big eye opener to me. Yup, "following the chain of compiler errors" mostly makes refactoring straightforward. Dynamic typing is fine when the codebase is small enough to keep it all in your head so you know w…

While I've always preferred static over dynamic, Powershell is what finally got me to actively disliking dynamic languages. Not strongly disliking, but enough that I'll put up with a bit of pain in order to use a static language over a dynamic language.

I made the mistake of trying to build a system in Powershell because the ability to remote into windows boxes was core to it. That was a mistake I didn't see coming.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#156

Post by Tharkun »

Yet Another Java Rant.

In my book, Java is a fine language, and has been since Java SE 6 was released back in 2006. It keeps getting better, too. "Glacial" pace or not.

Whenever any kind of discussion about Java comes up, people start ranting about XML configuration or annotations. These are not language problems. These are developer problems. If you don't like XML or annotations, then don't use them. Problem solved. Very few Java features require the use of either.

I rarely run into issues with the Java language, syntax or productivity wise. I've run into a couple of Sun/Oracle/IBM bugs in my 17 years of Java development. I've greatly appreciated productivity-increasing features like try-with-resources and Streams, but the lack of those features have never held me back as a developer.

Given the sheer amount of Java code out there, I would say it deserves a little more praise and a little less negativity.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#157

Post by kasey_junk »

xiaoma wrote: post #141
kasey_junk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For certain classes of problems the JVM just cannot be beat. Its a phenomenal bit of tech that laps the competition, especially with regard to large data sets, concurrency support, and instrumentation. Unfortunately, Java the language is fairly painful to work in (less so every release but still). Kotlin makes that particular problem less of an issue. Even in plain Java though, your description of "the vast, lumberin…

Could you dig in a bit more into how the JVM laps the Erlang VM in terms of concurrency support and instrumentation?

Erlang is probably the closest competitor to the JVM and is a fine VM in its own right (especially for classes of concurrency problems that can operate independently).

But if you are dealing with a big interconnected data set that also needs to be concurrently accessed the Erlang memory model doesn't work as well as the JVM one.

For the kind of concurrency model that Erlang is offering it is great, but the JVM offers more variety, so that you can craft your concurrency to your problem instead of being shoe horned into 1 model.

I'd add that the commercial offerings for the JVM (and alternative JVMs like Zing) make the ecosystem more rich than the Erlang one as well.

Finally, I'd say that Erlang suffers from a similar problem to Java, that is, the VM is without peer for certain classes of problem but the ergonomics of the language make people choose other solutions. I think that is a shame as I'd like to see more solutions built on top of BEAM.

I should note, I've not programmed on BEAM for production purposes, only for small projects, but the reason for that is largely those that I mention above.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#158

Post by [deleted] »

xiaoma wrote: post #141
kasey_junk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For certain classes of problems the JVM just cannot be beat. Its a phenomenal bit of tech that laps the competition, especially with regard to large data sets, concurrency support, and instrumentation. Unfortunately, Java the language is fairly painful to work in (less so every release but still). Kotlin makes that particular problem less of an issue. Even in plain Java though, your description of "the vast, lumberin…

Could you dig in a bit more into how the JVM laps the Erlang VM in terms of concurrency support and instrumentation?

[deleted]

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#159

Post by Double_a_92 »

askvictor wrote: post #121
comboy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh Delphi.. every time I fight with CSS and think about how easy making GUI apps used to be almost 20(sic!) years ago, I feel like something went wrong. Mandatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4

Haven't looked at Delphi since last century, but it seems it's still alive, and can produce iOS and Android (and all the desktops) programs. No idea how well though...

It's rubbish. Worst IDE I've ever worked with, sometimes I consider just using Notepad. No day without crashes, random errors, intelliSense not working, debugger suddenly not showing variable values, code navigation not working...

Embarcadero is just milking companies that need Delphi for legacy code.

Re: Kotlin Is Better

#160

Post by agentgt »

What makes me nervous about Kotlin is it could become Scala (or even Groovy) again.

Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of Scala and highly expressive language but on the other hand there is something to be said for simple consistent and not that expressive languages. It pains me to say it but less choices and not more.

That is I want Kotlin, or Scala, or Java to be a little more like Go (and I'm not a fan of Go). The development consistency with Go with gofmt and other build tools as well as having fairly good default concurrency (Java as a myriad of concurrency practices: eg. streams, actors, rx) help ramp up time.

The ramp up time for all JVM languages is pretty awful compared to C# or Go. There are so many tools and libraries and different way people do things. I love the choices but it really hurts bringing on new talent.

Luckily Kotlin is backed by a tools provider so perhaps extreme consistency will happen but when I look at the Spring 5.0 examples (also on the HN right now) I get nervous and think oh this is becoming Scala academic DSL confusion all over.

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