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US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

nytimes.com

321–330 of 436 posts

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone pays a little more so that everyone's children can go to college for free. Saying it's poor people paying for rich people is complete nonsense. And as it is, wealthy people's children will go to college regardless of how it's funded; everyone paying through taxation is essentially the only mechanism that enables poor people's children get access to higher education. That means it's better than all the altern…

There is no country where everyone's children actually do go to college. The US already has one of the highest rates of college attainment at 50%. Which 50% do you think sends more of its kids to college, the top 50, or the bottom 50? The problem with the bottom 50 isn't that they can't afford college, it is that they've already been failed by the educational system, legal system, their parents, etc. The problem ther…

Sucks for the hairdresser that has to subsidize my kids (And my mortgage).

The fallacy you're falling for is that you think that a person's tax bill is going to change depending on what the government spends money on. If the government doesn't spend on education then a hairdresser doesn't get to pay less tax; that money is saved to used to cut taxes for the wealthy, or to give giant corporations a break, or to buy even fancier bombs from billion dollar arms companies. Ordinary people aren't affected.

Given the choice between giving corporations an amnesty on reshoring the billions in cash they have in offshore accounts or paying for kids to go to college for free, I think the better option is education.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bubbles are caused by speculation, often by unsophisticated investors. Since an education is a non-transferrable asset it's difficult to conceive how it could be classified as a "bubble". Speculators buy assets that they aren't going to use themselves purely to sell it to someone else. If speculators are selling to mostly to other speculators and transactions between speculators starts taking up the bulk of the activ…

Here is how the college bubble would burst. People with large amounts of debt demand high salaries (because they have to pay the debt) . The bubble would burst when companies realize that they can pay someone who went to a trade school/bootcamp much less money, for a similar quality of work than that produced by the people with expensive degrees. It is already starting to happen, with the insane amount of bootcampers…

I have little idea if the current college situation is sustainable or not, but this argument sounds very similar to what we heard about outsourcing a couple of decades ago. Why keep paying all those expensive CS majors in the States when you can hire a smart person from overseas/bootcamp for fraction of the cost? Somehow we didn't quite get that malthusian glut last time.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark everyone can get scholarships to pay for their entire education. That and they get a stipend for living expenses. Everyone gets this, young or old, rich or poor.

It gets more complicated in a non homogenous country with 56 times the population. But for sure, Denmark is a nice, well run country.

> It gets more complicated in a non homogenous country

Can you please give me a simple, non-racist explanation why this matters? Please explicitly spell-out what is/is not homogeneous (I always assume race), and explain why that complicates things.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that. Isn't the whole point of outfits like Navient that the govt. loses money by selling off billions of the obligations to servicers?

No, not at all. There are three players in the student loan game: lender, servicer, and guarantor. The lender is pretty much what it sounds like. The servicer is the agency that handles the repayment process (and any deferment or forbearance) as long as the loan is not in default. The guarantor is where the loan is transferred if it goes into default. The guarantor will add collection fees of up to 20% of the default…

Given that explanation, I find it hard to understand why Navient should provoke a moral outrage over activities which seem to fall under what you describing as servicing: isn't their incentive to keep the debtor to the original terms of the loan? It could be argued that these debtors should have never signed on to begin with, but that would be on the lender's shoulders. Thanks for the explanation.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#325
post #6

Excellent. Which group of poor decision makers will I get to bail out soon (oh, students, superb!) while reading my daily "The Death of the Middle Class" article?

Why would a bunch of rich kids get the bailout we should instead give the money to all those poor banks that put themselves at risk.

/s?

A bank's core function is to evaluate credit risk. If a bank can't do that, the people running it should be doing something else.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no country where everyone's children actually do go to college. The US already has one of the highest rates of college attainment at 50%. Which 50% do you think sends more of its kids to college, the top 50, or the bottom 50? The problem with the bottom 50 isn't that they can't afford college, it is that they've already been failed by the educational system, legal system, their parents, etc. The problem ther…

Sucks for the hairdresser that has to subsidize my kids (And my mortgage). The fallacy you're falling for is that you think that a person's tax bill is going to change depending on what the government spends money on. If the government doesn't spend on education then a hairdresser doesn't get to pay less tax; that money is saved to used to cut taxes for the wealthy, or to give giant corporations a break, or to buy ev…

you think that a person's tax bill

No, I never said that, I said there are better ways to spend the money. In 2015 in East Palo Alto, they had to close an elementary school for two weeks because they had no heat. How much do you think those kids benefit from a promise of free college versus a safe, clean, heated, well staffed elementary school?

Given the choice between giving corporations an amnesty on reshoring the billions in cash they have in offshore accounts or paying for kids to go to college for free, I think the better option is education.

Talk about fallacies, there is a false dilemma wrapped in a straw man for you, but let's go with it. No one is offering that choice, but if they were, you should probably be for it because the reshored money could be used for education, though hopefully spent wisely, not on free college. With an amnesty, at least the govt. gets some money to spend. It doesn't help pay for free college to do nothing.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#327
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

Out of curiosity, what are the requirements for getting into a university there? http://www.businessinsider.com/how-do-european-countries-aff... " For all countries, with the exception of Finland, the US has a much higher percentage of students who have enrolled in post-high school education. "

I can't speak for Finland, but here in Germany, you need Hochschulreife (university entrance qualification) to attend a university. There are two basic ways to get there, depending on which type of secondary schooling you attended.

After typically attending primary school for four years [1] (age 6-10 or 7-11), there are three basic types of secondary schools:

- The Hauptschule (general school) is five years long (for a total of nine years). This level of education traditionally [1] prepares for vocational training in the crafts, e.g. in construction or as a barber and so on. As far as I know, there is no way to get to university from here.

- The Realschule (real school) is six years long (for a total of ten years). This level of education is traditionally [1] required for office staff. From this point, you can get to the Allgemeine Hochschulreife by completing vocational education in a profession of your choosing (typically 3 years), then attending school again for 1-2 years, which gives you the Fachhochschulreife (entrance qualification for universities of applied sciences).

This is how my brothers got their degrees: They both went through Realschule, completed vocational training (one as a road builder, the other as a gauger), then got the Fachhochschulreife, applied to a university of applied sciences, and completed a 4-year curriculum to become certified civil engineers.

- The Gymnasium is eight or nine years long (for a total of 12-13 years). Successful completion gives you the Allgemeine Hochschulreife (general university entrance qualification) which allows you to enroll at any university in Germany.

This is how I did it. The only barrier that might exist is a Numerus Clausus: If courses are in higher demand than what universities can muster, they can restrict entry to students with a grade higher than a certain threshold. (The grade is the one on the entrance qualification.)

In my case (I studied physics and computer science in Dresden), this didn't apply: All I had to do was to fill out a form with my name, address and desired major and hand it in before a certain deadline. Also, there is a small tuition fee of around 250 euros per semester. Of this, about 180 euros pay for my subsidized public transit ticket. About 60 euros go to the Studentenwerk (student services), which operates the university's canteens and offers counseling. The remaining change goes to the student's council.

[1] The fine print for all of these descriptions: The education system is in constant upheaval in Germany. Every politician or focus group has their own opinion on how the system should be. Therefore, there's not just 3 forms of secondary school. More like 30 or 40 (over all 16 member states of the Federal Republic of Germany). Secondly, there's a similar trend in Germany than in the US or elsewhere to put less and less value on the shorter tiers of secondary school. More and more roles that used to be Realschule plus vocational education now require a degree. And more and more vocational trainings that used to require Hauptschule now require Realschule. Whereas, a few decades ago, maybe 10% of pupils attended Gymnasium (and went on to university), nowadays it's more like 50-60%.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#328
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph describes the Australian university system. Government foots the bill to invest in your education, you pay it back gradually (and not until you're earning enough for it not to hurt).

And the UK (in principle). Although it's quite savage, as the repayments are tied to RPI if you took out your loan post 2012. You pay 9% of your income over 21k-ish until the debt is paid off. Calculator here to show just how grossly unfair this system is in practice [0]. [0] http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-finance-ca...

Out of interest, what makes this system unfair? Or are you just talking about the year demarcations?

I've always quite liked that my student loan repayment is tied to my salary as it's one less bill to worry about if/when things go badly. It means that when we were getting our business off the ground and didn't take salary out, I at least didn't have to worry about the student loan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to the day I'm not having to pay it but at the same time, I think the changes in university fees would be better received if they simply called it a graduate tax that expires after 20 years.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#329
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory the poor (should) pay less taxes. In practice, I'm telling you, in Europe taxes pay for free education and social equality is higher than in the US and access to education (and healthcare) much better.

Like the US, in Europe most of the poor don't go to college. While they pay less taxes, they do pay taxes, and that money pays for the upper class to get their education (not free, paid for by everyone else). The root of the social equality issues in the US are vastly far removed from "free college". It's the exact opposite - we need fewer marginal colleges, fewer for profit colleges, fewer marginal graduates, fewer…

Depends on how you define poor but in Europe lower class families with no studies sending their children to become doctors or engineers is commonplace (without grants, students that are not super high achievers). In USA as far as I can see this is not true those families can't afford the cost and debt and even if the student could ends up with a huge debt for a large part of his life with no assistance and a worse social net. This is absolutely not the case in Europe. We are talking about people who want to get into college and can't afford it. Happens a lot more in the US.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#330
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. Can anyone become a doctor? Where I studied as long as you passed the entrance bar, you can. In big cities there are usually several public universities, some more prestigious perhaps, with a low score you can probably get into the less prestigious ones but you can be a doctor at close to 0 cost. I don't think you can become a doctor in the US without incurring serious debt for example?

I admit that's a bit of a special case because the AMA restricts accreditation. I would note that schools in the Caribbean have arisen to fill that need - they are notorious for taking students who performed low on the MCAT. I believe the higher debt these students take on is commensurate with physician salaries here are in most cases much higher than in Europe.

Ok so we are talking about colleges that are so bad they don't let you get accreditation for important professions. Not sure if it's what I'm thinking about, but are those the "community colleges", liberal arts universities and stuff like that? In any case you can't study "what you want". You can't become a doctor and I'd guess not an aviation engineer, architect, etc. and expect employment in your field right? Not without going to a "proper" school on debt. That doesn't happen in Europe. There you can get into all those degrees on ~0 cost. For some you need some academic record but I'd argue that's a good thing. A very bad student is never going to finish medicine anyway.
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