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US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

nytimes.com

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Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#311

Post by kome »

austenallred wrote: post #70
manacit wrote: post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

Also, for those who are struggling: http://www.uopeople.edu/ They are a (nationally) accredited university. A bachelor with them is no more than $4000. They offer just AAs and BAs in business and computer science tho.

Here their wikipedia for more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_the_People

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#312

Post by onion2k »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #307
onion2k wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as everyone benefits from a better educated society that's how it should be.

That doesn't make it free. It does mean the poor, the hardworking, non-college educated working class pay for the more wealthy, more educated kids to go to college for free, while their own kids get to sit another generation out.

Everyone pays a little more so that everyone's children can go to college for free. Saying it's poor people paying for rich people is complete nonsense. And as it is, wealthy people's children will go to college regardless of how it's funded; everyone paying through taxation is essentially the only mechanism that enables poor people's children get access to higher education. That means it's better than all the alternatives.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#313

Post by maccard »

fratlas wrote: post #79
austenallred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

Your last paragraph describes the Australian university system. Government foots the bill to invest in your education, you pay it back gradually (and not until you're earning enough for it not to hurt).

And the UK (in principle). Although it's quite savage, as the repayments are tied to RPI if you took out your loan post 2012. You pay 9% of your income over 21k-ish until the debt is paid off. Calculator here to show just how grossly unfair this system is in practice [0].

[0] http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-finance-ca...

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#314

Post by moduspol »

int_19h wrote: post #216
moduspol wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or let it become a market again, like it was for our parents until these subsidies came along.

Letting healthcare become a truly free market literally means having people die on the streets from preventable diseases if they can't afford to treat them. Most civilized nations have decided that they don't want that kind of thing a long time ago.

I didn't say "truly free" market or healthcare, and the thread is about higher education, but thanks.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#316

Post by user5994461 »

crdb wrote: post #217
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be more convincing if McKinsey and GS were genuinely considered to be producing something of value. The reality is - more nuanced. Certainly there are many who consider both GS and McKinsey to be very bad things indeed, and not in any way a professional niche that high quality graduates should aspire to. Perhaps there may be more to "intrinsic quality" than an obsessive work ethic and social connections? M…

Ah, but I'm not saying that Ivy/Oxbridge grads make better employees all else being equal (in particular salary). I'm specifically saying that on a financial/job hunting basis, it makes more sense to pick a prestigious university and "useless" degree than a "useful" degree at a non-prestigious university, in aggregate. When you are on the other side, other variables come into play. For example, elite grads might be g…

>>> This is something that comes up a lot in the Valley and the last team I've personally hired was about half no-degree and half not-famous-degree, so you can guess my position (we hired based on technical capability and more or less ignored CVs).

I'll say it: You just hired for cheap.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#317

Post by WillPostForFood »

onion2k wrote: post #312
WillPostForFood wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make it free. It does mean the poor, the hardworking, non-college educated working class pay for the more wealthy, more educated kids to go to college for free, while their own kids get to sit another generation out.

Everyone pays a little more so that everyone's children can go to college for free. Saying it's poor people paying for rich people is complete nonsense. And as it is, wealthy people's children will go to college regardless of how it's funded; everyone paying through taxation is essentially the only mechanism that enables poor people's children get access to higher education. That means it's better than all the altern…

There is no country where everyone's children actually do go to college. The US already has one of the highest rates of college attainment at 50%. Which 50% do you think sends more of its kids to college, the top 50, or the bottom 50? The problem with the bottom 50 isn't that they can't afford college, it is that they've already been failed by the educational system, legal system, their parents, etc. The problem there is vastly deeper than "Free college".

You are basically advocating the most regressive tax in history. That money would be vastly better served by sending it to inner city elementary schools than dangling in front of a huge group of people who will never be able to use it.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#318

Post by WillPostForFood »

lz400 wrote: post #310
WillPostForFood wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make it free. It does mean the poor, the hardworking, non-college educated working class pay for the more wealthy, more educated kids to go to college for free, while their own kids get to sit another generation out.

In theory the poor (should) pay less taxes. In practice, I'm telling you, in Europe taxes pay for free education and social equality is higher than in the US and access to education (and healthcare) much better.

Like the US, in Europe most of the poor don't go to college. While they pay less taxes, they do pay taxes, and that money pays for the upper class to get their education (not free, paid for by everyone else).

The root of the social equality issues in the US are vastly far removed from "free college". It's the exact opposite - we need fewer marginal colleges, fewer for profit colleges, fewer marginal graduates, fewer drop outs, and more job training.

If the US could take one lesson from European education, it would be a good system of tracking students into job training in high school.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#319

Post by blacktulip »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #305
smileysteve wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free In SOME countries in europe, higher education is free. I've met plenty of Brits with student loans. They're still in Europe (and the eu for now)

We have to pay in the UK, however everyone gets 'free' student loans to cover it. They cover tuition (£9k per year) and you have the choice of a 'maintenance loan' (basically to cover living costs) of £3-12k depending on whether you live in London or not. I think interest matches inflation, it is paid back via a tax straight out of your pay check but not until you are earning more than £25k per year. Also worth notin…

The threshold is £21K. You repay 9% of anything above that. After 30 years the debt is written off no matter what.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#320

Post by lr4444lr »

lz400 wrote: post #211
lr4444lr wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which are worthy considerations in making a judgment on the "better" system. I was just making an important qualification: the U.S. system has wider opportunities for pretty much anyone to attend somewhere and study anything. Now I will be the first to say that the sheer numbers attending universities in the U.S. beggar belief that they many or all of the increased enrollment allow the schools to maintain the…

I don't think that's true. Can anyone become a doctor? Where I studied as long as you passed the entrance bar, you can. In big cities there are usually several public universities, some more prestigious perhaps, with a low score you can probably get into the less prestigious ones but you can be a doctor at close to 0 cost. I don't think you can become a doctor in the US without incurring serious debt for example?

I admit that's a bit of a special case because the AMA restricts accreditation. I would note that schools in the Caribbean have arisen to fill that need - they are notorious for taking students who performed low on the MCAT. I believe the higher debt these students take on is commensurate with physician salaries here are in most cases much higher than in Europe.
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