Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…
I don't know, maybe it's different now, but my generation (went to school in the mid 90s) was not told to "just go to the best college no matter what": We were also advised to consider the cost and carefully choose a major so as to produce a positive expected ROI. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and you can never tell when huge, industry-wrecking changes are coming, but it was well understood that majoring in Und…
US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
111–120 of 436 posts
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
University is ripe for disruption. Not only has the prices spiraled out of control, no time in history has good quality information has been more available on the Internet. When I was in school, when YouTube was new, I would watch well crafted lectures from top tier professors for free. This allowed me to get a better handle on my brick and mortar class. The problem is the career value of a degree has not diminished,…
> The problem is the career value of a degree has not diminished, it's a bit of a network effect really. Maybe people can get hired from Coursera certificates, I would certainly consider it if I was a hiring manager. A university degree tells me three things a Coursera certificate doesn't: 1. A graduate have more breadth and depth in a given major. Standford's CS course includes math, physics, engineering, programmin…
However, there's nothing to stop a person studying just as many topics/subjects online, and to cover them in about as much depth.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging From an outsiders (AU) perspective, it sounds very depressing for youngsters - massive student loans and then you need to jump on the mortgage treadmill (unless you're lucky). It almost sounds to the point where individual students could pay for personal tutors with the amount of cash they're spending* (or borrowing then…
University is about signalling not education (for the most part). University administrators are a large part of the cost increase.
CAAM courses taught me about numerical stability, and how careful one must be to design an algorithm correctly if you care about the accuracy of your results. Statistics was tough and taught me how much I don't know about that field, while giving me the tools to understand probability and statistical distributions. These are extremely relevant in business, where we use statistics to model and predict customer behavior, or to fight abuse.
One of the most memorable courses of my university education was ELEC 220, which teaches you how CPUs work from the transistor level up. That and related courses culminated with having you design your own general-purpose computer, from scratch, in a simulator, using nothing but basic logic gates and buses. This included designing the RAM, the instruction set, the ALU, and a number of other components from first principles. I learned that, when you understand those first principles, it's actually not that hard!
Another course, COMP 421: Operating Systems and Concurrent Programming, required me to build my own implementation of Unix processes and multithreading, my own virtual memory system, implementation of locks and mutexes, a malloc-style allocator based on `brk` (a system call that I built previously for my implementation of processes, implemented on top of my virtual memory system), and so on. I built my own simple OS kernel. I think we made a file system too. These are very difficult to build correctly and the experience of putting that effort in, and getting it right, taught me about the limits of my ability, and what I can achieve if I apply myself.
These projects were incredibly challenging, and I learned a tremendous amount during these courses and more. I gained the confidence that, if I needed to, I can design and build most of a modern computer and OS from first principles. This in turn provides a strong foundation for understanding and reasoning about actual, real systems. It gave me the ability to understand how things work at all layers, from transistors to the CPU, to the OS, to an interpreted programming language, to an algorithm running in the language; to dive deep into any layer, and design solutions for any problem. I think this kind of comfort and competence is difficult for non-CS graduates to achieve.
It also gives me an understanding of just how much I don't know in fields like mathematics, statistics, and numerical stability, so that I have a healthy respect for them and know when to investigate and apply rigorous solutions in these spaces to business challenges. A passing familiarity makes it possible for me to research and apply known solutions quickly.
I studied other fields like psychology and human factors, which have been relevant to understanding people (like users of software), and modeling various failures in systems, e.g. operator error.
After graduating college, I also learned a tremendous amount about software engineering in industry. The amount that I learned in industry easily equals or exceeds what I learned in college. However, the topics that you can effectively learn in college are difficult to effectively learn in other ways.
I think I'd only be a shell of the engineer I am today if I hadn't had this education to build on. While I think you can get a job in the industry without this kind of education, if you want to be top in your field some day, then a rigorous theoretical/applied education is a real advantage.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…
The problem with this incentive is that it would encourage the university to only accept applicants who have a good financial background to begin with. For example, applicants whose parents have significant assets. We don't like to admit it, but this would probably be as useful a predictor as to the student's income as the quality of education. If universities started choosing applicants this way, we end up with a sy…
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would this be any different than a right to, say, health care? Why even pay for k-12?
The government isn't running the schools (most of the time), it's just underwriting an infinite amount of loans for students to take and go to private companies with. So if you're a University you know a) students think they should pay however much it costs to attend and b) they have an unlimited amount of funding to do so with. Thus ITT Tech.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy? If it were, banks would be far less likely to issue them, students would find cheaper education alternatives, and universities would be forced to provide greater assistance.
Largely because of the perverse incentives to declare bankruptcy immediately upon graduation. Think about it: no major purchase on the horizon, such as a mortgage- why not just ditch the loan if it's only going to hurt your credit file temporarily? Call it a slippery slope fallacy, but it's not fallacious when you realize we are rational beings (for the most part) and this loophole is attractive.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging From an outsiders (AU) perspective, it sounds very depressing for youngsters - massive student loans and then you need to jump on the mortgage treadmill (unless you're lucky). It almost sounds to the point where individual students could pay for personal tutors with the amount of cash they're spending* (or borrowing then…
iirc US and state government funding for public universities has decreased severely, which has caused tuition to spike up. That's probably at least one major factor in the hikes - what taxes used to pay for, now individuals pay for directly. Except that the top marginal tax rates also used to be much, much higher, so it was subsidized by the rich. But then, there are also many more people going to college now, and th…
The mandate is that the UC system is required to offer spots for the top 12.5% of the current year's in-state graduating high school seniors, so this mandate obviously expands if university-age population increases. Which to be fair is sensible: it makes sense for the state university system's size to be roughly proportional to the size of the state's university-aged population. But then you should fund it proportionally too.
Here are some numbers I put together a few years ago (not updated since 2012): http://www.kmjn.org/misc/uc_funding.txt
Which is not to say overpaid administrators aren't also sucking out more money than they should be. The UC Office of the President (UCOP) is currently being deservedly raked over the coals by the state auditor, and I would not shed a tear if UCOP's budget specifically were cut. But in terms of big-picture trends, the state's per-student funding declining from $30k/student in the '70s and '80s to less than half of that in 2012 is a pretty good first-order explanation.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…
I don't know, maybe it's different now, but my generation (went to school in the mid 90s) was not told to "just go to the best college no matter what": We were also advised to consider the cost and carefully choose a major so as to produce a positive expected ROI. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and you can never tell when huge, industry-wrecking changes are coming, but it was well understood that majoring in Und…
Thanks to merit-based scholarships and need-based aid, I graduated with minimal debt, despite attending a private college with a $45k per year sticker price. Thanks to a proper choice of majors, I made good money right out of school.
I'm always puzzled when people claim that one needs to come from money to succeed.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it is worth it then why complain so much ?
Because it doesn't necessarily have to cost that much. There are world-class universities in Europe, Australia, Japan, etc. that don't cost $60k+ a year.
Makes no sense to me. Any person who thinks something is more expensive than it can be; can start his own college and win over the market while making a lot of money.
How can a person claim to know the value of other people's labor ?
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
You basically said it yourself. They could just go to instate public schools.
Even in public state university tuition is quite high. Community colleges are more reasonable. I'm considering suggesting my kids go to local community college for 2 years and then university to finish their degrees. We'll see when we get there.
I really wish I had done this. It would've saved me $20,000+. It's a great option, especially if you're in a place with a good community college system with guaranteed admissions agreements (e.g., Virginia).