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Autonomous Ships

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Re: Autonomous Ships

#31

Post by electic »

hwillis wrote: post #14
thomasthomas wrote: post #3

By one consultant's estimate, moreover, carrying sailors accounts for 44 percent of a ship's costs. I find this hard to believe even if autonomous ships can be done without a bridge. The Emma Maersk has 15,000 TEU and a crew of 13 http://www.emma-maersk.com/specification/

"Crew costs of $3,299 a day account for about 44 percent of total operating expenses for a large container ship, according to Moore Stephens LLP, an industry accountant and consultant."[1] The Maersk triple E's have a crew of 13 and consume ~136 tonnes/day of bunker fuel[2] which costs currently ~$315/tonne[3], for a daily fuel cost of $42,840. So right off the bat that number is very suspect. Even for other ships li…

What about food? What about living supplies? Also, dock living services? And other dock related expenses for crew? Don't forget, all this has to be insured on sea and on land.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#32

Post by mabbo »

hwillis wrote: post #14
thomasthomas wrote: post #3

By one consultant's estimate, moreover, carrying sailors accounts for 44 percent of a ship's costs. I find this hard to believe even if autonomous ships can be done without a bridge. The Emma Maersk has 15,000 TEU and a crew of 13 http://www.emma-maersk.com/specification/

"Crew costs of $3,299 a day account for about 44 percent of total operating expenses for a large container ship, according to Moore Stephens LLP, an industry accountant and consultant."[1] The Maersk triple E's have a crew of 13 and consume ~136 tonnes/day of bunker fuel[2] which costs currently ~$315/tonne[3], for a daily fuel cost of $42,840. So right off the bat that number is very suspect. Even for other ships li…

While I agree with your analysis, one counter-argument I can think of: Is the ship always using that much fuel?

I know a lot of ships spend days waiting to enter the panama canal, or days in port. Crew is certainly paid for those days as well. What percentage of the time is the ship fully underway and using fuel?

That 44% figure might be more reasonable if you're only burning fuel 1/3 of the time.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#33

Post by pavel_lishin »

joe_the_user wrote: post #25
dibujante wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pirates are after hostages, not cargo, generally. It's very hard to crack the cargo anyways - it's usually stored in a solid steel 20-to-40 foot shipping container with solid steel lashings bolting everything together. You'd need to be able to cut through a lot of steel, but then moving the actual cargo itself would require, well, a large vessel. Selling it would be a very involved process. All of this puts sea pirac…

It's very hard to crack the cargo anyways - it's usually stored in a solid steel 20-to-40 foot shipping container with solid steel lashings bolting everything together. The other plan would be go on board and reprogram the ship to go elsewhere, the nearest deserted coast say, maybe carry the ship's beacons a ways away in a different direction before dumping them in the sea. I'm sure if you crash a whole container shi…

Isn't that possible now, by spoofing GPS? Would the crew have any idea until they suddenly saw shore?

Re: Autonomous Ships

#34

Post by otto_ortega »

I'm interested in taking a shot creating a SaaS business related to the freight forwarders / containers shipping logistic or similar.

Does anybody here works on that sector and is willing to share some of the troubles they perceive on the industry that can be solved with software / machine learning?

Re: Autonomous Ships

#35

Post by chriskanan »

I spent two years working on autonomous ships at NASA JPL, primary on developing deep learning algorithms for ship detection and classification to obey maritime traffic rules (COLREGS), avoid obstacles, help with decision making, etc.

Regarding piracy, autonomy would cut down on costs a lot. Based on my understanding, besides cutting down on life-support costs and having extra room for more cargo, the ships would also be able to eliminate the cost of the armed guards that many have kept on their ships since the rise of piracy. That's one of the main reasons why we don't hear about piracy anymore [0]. With no controls on the ship, pirates wouldn't be able to take control.

Note also that Rolls Royce is looking into drone ships (rather than full autonomy): https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2016/pr-...

[0] http://www.marineinsight.com/marine-piracy-marine/18-anti-pi...

Re: Autonomous Ships

#36

Post by nradov »

I don't get it. What will they do when an autonomous ship loses power or steering in the middle of the ocean outside of helicopter range? It can't just pull over to the side of the road and stop.

Ships require constant maintenance to not fall apart. That maintenance can't be automated with anything like current technology. If the crew doesn't do maintenance en route then it will have to be done at the dock, thus taking the ship out of service and costing more money.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#37

Post by wlesieutre »

nradov wrote: post #36

I don't get it. What will they do when an autonomous ship loses power or steering in the middle of the ocean outside of helicopter range? It can't just pull over to the side of the road and stop. Ships require constant maintenance to not fall apart. That maintenance can't be automated with anything like current technology. If the crew doesn't do maintenance en route then it will have to be done at the dock, thus taki…

Why's it need to pull over? It's in the middle of the ocean. Unless you're a spaceship it's hard to get any more out of the way.

Presumably you send out a repair crew by boat.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#38

Post by dsr_ »

joe_the_user wrote: post #25
dibujante wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pirates are after hostages, not cargo, generally. It's very hard to crack the cargo anyways - it's usually stored in a solid steel 20-to-40 foot shipping container with solid steel lashings bolting everything together. You'd need to be able to cut through a lot of steel, but then moving the actual cargo itself would require, well, a large vessel. Selling it would be a very involved process. All of this puts sea pirac…

It's very hard to crack the cargo anyways - it's usually stored in a solid steel 20-to-40 foot shipping container with solid steel lashings bolting everything together. The other plan would be go on board and reprogram the ship to go elsewhere, the nearest deserted coast say, maybe carry the ship's beacons a ways away in a different direction before dumping them in the sea. I'm sure if you crash a whole container shi…

Ships are trackable by satellite. Photos, I mean; they show up on photos. Totally passive.

So if you have successfully hijacked a Pacific container ship full of automobiles bound for Los Angeles... where are you going to dock it? Who does the offloading? And where do you sell 5500 sedans at once that makes all this risk worthwhile?

I think that planting remotely controlled explosives and extorting payment against sinking the cargo is the way to go.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#39

Post by nradov »

wlesieutre wrote: post #37
nradov wrote: post #36

I don't get it. What will they do when an autonomous ship loses power or steering in the middle of the ocean outside of helicopter range? It can't just pull over to the side of the road and stop. Ships require constant maintenance to not fall apart. That maintenance can't be automated with anything like current technology. If the crew doesn't do maintenance en route then it will have to be done at the dock, thus taki…

Why's it need to pull over? It's in the middle of the ocean. Unless you're a spaceship it's hard to get any more out of the way. Presumably you send out a repair crew by boat.

No that's not how it works. Disabled ships don't just sit there. The wind and currents eventually push them into rocks. Disabled ships also present a hazard to other vessels. Repair boats don't move fast enough to get there in time, especially in rough weather.

Re: Autonomous Ships

#40

Post by oconnore »

chriskanan wrote: post #35

I spent two years working on autonomous ships at NASA JPL, primary on developing deep learning algorithms for ship detection and classification to obey maritime traffic rules (COLREGS), avoid obstacles, help with decision making, etc. Regarding piracy, autonomy would cut down on costs a lot. Based on my understanding, besides cutting down on life-support costs and having extra room for more cargo, the ships would als…

Drone ships sound interesting. The shipping company can definitely afford having a person remotely check in on millions of dollars of cargo every ~15 minutes or so, and so full autonomy seems like the 20 in 80/20 (maybe more like 95/5).
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