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The Dark Side of Doctoring

ericlevi.com

221–230 of 241 posts

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private insurance actually started a lot of these initiatives. If you're a physician with a busy practice, at the end of the month, you'll get a check from all of the big insurance companies detailing how much they're paying you. It doesn't read, "You saw 100 patients at $100/patient, here's $10,000." It's more like, "You saw 100 patients, here's your per-patient fee of $50. You prescribed 87% generic medicines, whic…

I can second the testimony about lots of upheaval and consolidation in the industry. A family member recently worked at a Big Law firm on antitrust cases, and a large portion of them had to do when recent M&A activity among hospitals, specialty clinics, and small practices. The days of the doctor as small-business proprietor are waning.

One interesting aspect with the consolidation of hospitals is that they are generally buying smaller hospitals, it isn't some massive merger which gives them immunity from anti-trust cases.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great until a patient dies and you have to inform their families. You are keeping a living being in a state between life and death chemically while they are undergoing massive trauma. Do you know how much their malpractice insurance is? It's not just hard work to become a doctor. It's hard work and sustained excellence. You don't just put in the hours, you have consume an enormous amount of information and are t…

You are keeping a living being in a state between life and death chemically while they are undergoing massive trauma. Why can't this be automated?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3971909/

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#223

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

It's well known within the medical field that being a doctor is really really tough. It takes a lot of smarts and grueling years in residency before you officially become a doctor. However it also pays incredibly well. Even moreso for specialities and surgeons, who can make over 200k a year even in low cost of living areas. Despite the difficulties of being a doctor it's harder to get into medical school than ever. T…

I think the attitude you have is really common among doctors, too.

I will say thought, that this is a really typical path in the US, at least:

* 4 years undergraduate ($200K debt, high competition/workload)

* 4 years medical school ($250K debt, high stress/workload, 50% odds of not being accepted)

* ~3 years residency (pay only $50K/yr, famously high stress/workload, possibility of being separated from loved ones or making hard choices in residency match)

So assuming starting undergrad at age 17, you have had a tough 11 years and are at least $300K in debt by the time you are 28 and getting your certification. This is ignoring specialties with fellowships. I don't have the time, but I'm sure it's possible to estimate the quality of the time sacrificed to education and lost compensation during that time and then amortize that over a typical career.

And the field is different... after all of that training they get to spend an inordinate amount of time doing paperwork/fighting with insurers, which (seems to be) leading to more group practices with workloads like those described in the article.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#224
post #213
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demand for food is also pretty inelastic, yet the free market seems to handle that fine.

Food is extremely predictable. Expensive medical care is not. Unfortunately the emergency / end of life care is by far the most expensive. You can get maybe a thousand flight physicals for the cost of one really good heart attack. Also once "the system" has its claws in you, you can't leave in practice even if its theoretically legally possible. My MiL goes in with stomach upset vomiting urgent care, next thing you k…

> emergency / end of life care

Emergency care, yes, that's unpredictable, and that's the sort of thing that health insurance should cover.

End of life care is not always unpredictable. In fact it rarely is in terms of the general need. Yes, you can't predict the exact point in time at which an 80-year-old person, say, will have an event that makes them require assisted living or a nursing home, but you can certainly foresee well in advance that such a need will arise at some point around that age. So this is not an unexpected need in the sense that emergency care is. And there's no reason why the same health plan should have to cover both needs, yet that is what the US health system does.

> you can't leave in practice even if its theoretically legally possible

Yes, this example of yours is an case of an unexpected need that health insurance should cover. However, I don't know of any "health insurance" in the US that only covers cases of unexpected need like this, and does not also cover everything else that is in any way involved with health care.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#225
post #189
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demand for food is also pretty inelastic, yet the free market seems to handle that fine.

No actually it does not. The government subsidizes food production and food for the poor HEAVILY. Also food is cheap and plentiful to create. And most importantly, food is easy to steal; the one important factor in a functioning free market libertarians tend to forget about is the natural control at the bottom, for the poor: if the poor need something in order to survive and can't afford it, they act as a check on gr…

> The government subsidizes food production

Yes, and this is a bug, not a feature. Food would be cheaper if this were not done. The "subsidies" are to the food producers, to artifically keep prices up. The equivalent for health care would be subsidies to health care providers.

> and food for the poor

Yes, with food stamps. But nobody tells the poor what they have to spend the food stamps on, and nobody regulates grocery stores up one side and down the other telling them what food items they have to provide if they accept food stamps and what they have to charge for every single item. So this regulation is nothing at all like US health care regulation.

The equivalent of food stamps for health care would be to give poor people a flat sum of money per month on a "health care spending card" that they could use at any health care provider they wanted, for any service they wanted. And then no other regulation of health care providers--no rules about what services they have to provide, no regulation of prices, etc. I personally think this would be a significant improvement over the current US system.

> food is cheap and plentiful to create

Yes, and it would be cheaper if the government did not subsidize producers, as above. The reason for this is, of course, that there is a free market in food (or at least much closer to one than the market in health care) and so producers are competing on price, therefore driving them to make food production more and more efficient. A century ago in the US, food was not cheap and plentiful to create. Technology and production processes improve over time if they are forced to by competition. I see no reason why the same would not apply to health care, if it were competitive the way food production is.

> food is easy to steal

This is an interesting point, but I'm not sure how much difference it makes in itself, because even the richest person in the world can only consume a limited quantity of food. So it makes no difference to rich people whether the poor can steal food or not; even if they do, the rich won't be the one to suffer, someone much further down the income ladder will (if anyone does).

A more interesting aspect is this:

> It's a lot harder to steal health care

I would rephrase this as: health care is much less fungible than food is. You and I can trade lunches, but we can't trade, say, gallbladder operations or physical exams. I agree that this is potentially a valid reason to treat health care different from food. What might be helpful is to look at other goods or services that are not fungible and see how they are handled in comparison with health care.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#226
post #186
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are blaming the failings of the US healthcare system on "the market", but the market in health care in the US is not anywhere close to a free market. Some key reasons why not: (1) The supply of doctors (and other health professionals) is restricted by licensing, not driven by the demand for their services. (2) The price of health care is not determined by supply and demand, but by various regulatory arrangements…

Good list, but one is missing: (6) basic health care is not a market and pretending it is has been nothing but a moral and economic catastrophe in the US.

> basic health care is not a market

Why not?

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#227

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

It's well known within the medical field that being a doctor is really really tough. It takes a lot of smarts and grueling years in residency before you officially become a doctor. However it also pays incredibly well. Even moreso for specialities and surgeons, who can make over 200k a year even in low cost of living areas. Despite the difficulties of being a doctor it's harder to get into medical school than ever. T…

It depends on the speciality. Internal medicine and almost anything related to pediatrics tends to pay less than other fields. Surgical fields tend to pay much more.

My wife is a pediatric emergency medicine physician and I get paid more than her because I'm in tech. Also, I started my career and began earning an income right after college, whereas she went to medical school and a fellowship before she could begin earning income.

I always joke with her that, in terms of income efficiency, my field is way more profitable than hers. And a lot less stressful too.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#228
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ER doctors work on a shift schedule, which has many documented advantages and disadvantages. Health issues are among the disadvantages. In my opinion, they can be pretty serious. Many medical specialities have concerns with depression and suicide. ER and ICU are among the two with which I have personal experience that face these issues quite acutely. If you have a loved one in one of those departments, the last thing…

Can you go into more detail about this? I'm currently a medical student in the US near the end of my training, and I'm weighing multiple specialties (including ED). From my personal experience in the ED, it's actually the best schedule I've worked. Yes, it's irregular, but you're always working a fixed amount of time per shift and a fixed amount of hours per week (seems to be around 40). You know when you're on, and…

I guess it depends on the person and your situation.

Before we had kids, my wife's shift schedule wasn't too bad. I owned my own business and could take time off when she was free during weekdays.

Now that we have kids, the shift schedule is tougher on her. Kids don't work on a shift schedule, and when they make demands of her time and I'm unable to help, she ends up sacrificing her sleep. That happens often enough that it makes any jokes about startup founders being sleep deprived, well, a joke.

Somehow, she's able to rally herself and get enough energy to work through a string of night shifts, even after having to take the toddler to the pediatrician during the day if I wasn't able to.

My wife also moonlights at another hospital (something she did back when I was getting my startup going and we needed the extra income). She continues to do this because she enjoys the work there (it's higher acuity).

That's just our personal experience. Colleagues of hers have solved this by hiring help (au pairs, nannies, etc), which we intend to do soon.

She's told me stories about some of her colleagues that don't have kids and have their own share of difficulties. One of them recently dealt with a particular tough case where a 3yo died. There's a culture in the ED where you don't take time off unless you're truly dying. Got the sniffles? Suck it up and come to work. Dealing with a traumatic experience and can't sleep because you've been crying all night? Suck it up and come to work. Hopefully that colleague finds a way to cope, because it's kind of frightening to me, as an outsider, to think of my ED doctor being that person.

I can only speak to the ED specialty. I'm clueless about other medical specialities and any potential health issues around them.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#229
post #224
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food is extremely predictable. Expensive medical care is not. Unfortunately the emergency / end of life care is by far the most expensive. You can get maybe a thousand flight physicals for the cost of one really good heart attack. Also once "the system" has its claws in you, you can't leave in practice even if its theoretically legally possible. My MiL goes in with stomach upset vomiting urgent care, next thing you k…

> emergency / end of life care Emergency care, yes, that's unpredictable, and that's the sort of thing that health insurance should cover. End of life care is not always unpredictable. In fact it rarely is in terms of the general need. Yes, you can't predict the exact point in time at which an 80-year-old person, say, will have an event that makes them require assisted living or a nursing home, but you can certainly…

People like to think competition results in variety, like the difference between Walmart and Nordstrom.

The reality is the unified vocational training and the court system and malpractice insurance system and fluidity of employee transfers and government licensing standards mean the variety in care available is more like the difference between McDonalds and Burger King and this aspect is extremely carefully avoided in the debates. Price competition simply will not happen in medical care, theres a lot more required to initiate it than merely messing with the insurance system, it goes very deep.

I think you miss the difficulty of walking out in mid treatment. Yes sure in theory its possible for people to get reservations at three restaurants and eat appetizers and drinks at one, the main meal at the second, and desert at the third. In practice roughly zero people do this even though in the restaurant marketplace they're hopefully not in pain or dying or semi-senile or some other medical distress, and their family isn't panicking. To get the restaurant marketplace analogy correct above, you'd have to use McDonalds, Burger King, and Wendys as your examples, so even if you wandered back and forth between restaurants, the bill would be about the same in the end if not higher on a system perspective from all the paperwork and increased transactional costs. The main, possibly only, effect of playing patient "hot potatoe" would be increasing suffering of sick people.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#230

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

If handoff risk were inversely related to shift length then one would expect European hospitals that adhere to the EU Working Time Directive to have significantly worse outcomes than both US and UK. Is this the case? Or do they not adhere to the working time directive?

We don't adhere to the EWTD.

I think a UK doctor's hours are probably easier than a US doctor's but we all break the EWTD (except for some specialties like psychiatry). For example I am rostered to work an average 48 hours a week, although there are some weeks I work more, and I will often stay behind to get things done. My total hours per week is probably around 50 - and I'm in a job that isn't considered busy!

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