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Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

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Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#541

Post by Jach »

thanksgiving wrote: post #523
nojvek wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSFT upgrades are a joke. I worked at MS and the number of times a machine decides to restart in the middle of a presentation is not even funny. This was in the windows department. It seems the decision was forced down by management. I hope someone up the chain realizes how much its cost to the actual users. There was a joke at MSFT "you don't become a VP without making the company lose a billion dollars"

I love GNU/Linux and I love bashing Windows but I remember a time not even ten years ago that people (better at computers than I am) would not dare run apt-get upgrade before a presentation. I think it still applies today. Personally, I don't understand computers well so thus might be misguided but what I want is something similar to se Linux or jails but every application stack lives on its own and does not share li…

There's a lot of prior art and stuff existing along those lines. Plan 9 allowed every process to have its own /proc filesystem separate from the global one, and could give out per-process references to hardware devices too. Illumos implemented the Linux kernel's interface so you can run binaries built for GNU/Linux inside a secure Zone. (MS implemented something similar so it's nice you can run bash natively in Win10 now, but there's no security in that...) Guix/NixOS have a package management system with atomic upgrades and rollbacks that should never lead to a borked system. Dependency management is crucial since you can isolate all you want -- build an OS where every application is its own docker image if you want -- but as soon as things want to talk to each other, if you don't account for API changes on that communication channel you will have a broken system.

But can any of it overcome worse-is-better? Are these things really that desirable for a personal computer or are they more suited to production servers? I've been using Gentoo as my main OS since 2007, on my current rig that I put together in 2009, and I wouldn't be that surprised if I'm still using it in 2027. Even knowing about other systems' advances I'm still using my own preferred set of compromises.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#542

Post by supernovae »

vetinari wrote: post #506
supernovae wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not whataboutism.. its making a fair comparison. I'm not excusing Microsoft's behavior based on others actions especially since I know this behavior is simple to disable in its latest OS release which is free to upgrade to.

Speaking of fair comparisons - which Google products, that shows these ads, did you pay hundreds dollars for?

if you want to compare, i don't see ads when i use free office online or when i use google office.

What i do see is that when i use outlook.com it doesn't pop down telling me to switch to Edge, but when i use Gmail its always telling me to switch to edge.

Have you actually used MS products in comparison to google? didn't think so..

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#543

Post by supernovae »

CydeWeys wrote: post #513
supernovae wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously aren't paying any attention to Microsoft lately and it shows. I'm not going to change that so the least you can do is show a little empathy for those who do. Its painfully apparent you really hate Microsoft for your own deply personal reasons. I'm not changing that. But I will stand up and say that what you have said is not true and not the case of Microsoft today. I'm not saying you have to change but…

> Google android is "Free" as Windows 10 is free.. you paid for it with hardware... This isn't true. I had to explicitly go out of my way to pay hundreds of dollars for a Windows license for my computer, which I assembled from components. It's not possible to pay money to anyone for Android; it's gratis. Google makes money on ads, not on selling Android.

Google has confidential "Mobile Application Distribution agreements" that guarantees google services and functionality and stipulates requirements.. Luckily court cases have revealed the stipulations that show Android is anything but "Free" to handset makers.. http://www.benedelman.org/docs/htc-mada.pdf

unfortunately i can't find any cases that show how much of the estimated ~60 dollars per handset is licensing costs for the google apps (as some have been licensed to mfrs) or patent / indemnification agreements needed that google doesn't offer but still are a cost to selling android handsets.

I know google makes a LOT more money on ads.. but lets be real, while android was open source its current incarnation is nowhere to be found and his hidden behind represive agrements, advertising, and marketing and android phones in the end are no cheaper than any other phone price wise..

When i buy a surface/tablet/oem pc it just comes with windows.. When i build a PC i buy an OEM license for 30 bucks.. if you know the platform you're running you can know how to save cash and make the best of it.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#544

Post by supernovae »

vetinari wrote: post #507
supernovae wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

again, this is another attack without much merit. Lots of windows users want the updates because they're asking Microsoft for them. If you want to run Linux then RUN Linux.. you don't need to rain on the MS parade for no other reason than a an apparent lack of empathy for what other human beings want to run.

I doubt that Windows users want the update process to interrupt them at the most inconvenient time possible. The problem are not (security) updates themselves. The problem is the intrusive update process and non-security updates bringing "features" nobody asked for.

People do ask for these features. There are millions of active windows users in the Windows Preview Program that provide feedback asking for windows to be improved in many different ways.

I'm not sure where these absolutely incorrect assumptions are coming from but they're entirely false. Windows believe it or not is community driven these days. MS is delivering features for its "enterprise insides" and for its "xbox insiders" and for its "windows insiders" and this is a HUGE community.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#545

Post by supernovae »

CydeWeys wrote: post #514
supernovae wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this argument. Its fully of fallacies and misconceptions. Microsoft offers a very similar ecosystem.. You can use office online, One drive, bing.com, skype, Cortana, Outlook.com and many services free for use with advertising (or no advertising) MS doesn't "take your money" either, you buy something with Windows 10 on it or you buy a mac with OSX.. iOS updates aren't usually optional, as they quickly spam…

> you buy something with Windows 10 on it This isn't true for many of us that build our own computers. I bought a boxed copy of Windows and installed it. It certainly didn't come with or on anything.

If you're building a computer, google "windows 10 oem license" and use that to install with the downloadable iso - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10

30 bucks in most stores..

or get licenses through visual studio benefits, schools or transfer from another PC you may be shutting down. It's not rocket science to save money if thats your biggest concern.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#546

Post by vetinari »

supernovae wrote: post #542
vetinari wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of fair comparisons - which Google products, that shows these ads, did you pay hundreds dollars for?

if you want to compare, i don't see ads when i use free office online or when i use google office. What i do see is that when i use outlook.com it doesn't pop down telling me to switch to Edge, but when i use Gmail its always telling me to switch to edge. Have you actually used MS products in comparison to google? didn't think so..

So you were never bugged to use Edge, after you launched Chrome or Firefox? (Like this: https://superuser.com/questions/1146123/disable-microsoft-ed...). Or your preferences for the default browser were never reset to Edge after some update ("accidentally")?

Windows is the paid one here.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#547

Post by vetinari »

supernovae wrote: post #544
vetinari wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that Windows users want the update process to interrupt them at the most inconvenient time possible. The problem are not (security) updates themselves. The problem is the intrusive update process and non-security updates bringing "features" nobody asked for.

People do ask for these features. There are millions of active windows users in the Windows Preview Program that provide feedback asking for windows to be improved in many different ways. I'm not sure where these absolutely incorrect assumptions are coming from but they're entirely false. Windows believe it or not is community driven these days. MS is delivering features for its "enterprise insides" and for its "xbox…

Do you think that these people (basically enthusiasts, nobody else would participate) are representative of all windows users? Do you even respect a feedback that goes against your business objectives?

Because all in all, Windows is getting less and less useful and more and more annoying. No, you don't need to stuff Cortana, Onedrive or whatever new initiative you have. If I wanted it, I would sign up by myself.

In my case, after I disabled the infamous KB 3035583 update for N-th time and it was back again, I lost my patience and switched the platform. I'm too old for such games. Some of my colleges still need win32 specific apps, but you can be sure, that as soon as they will be able to replace them, they will jump too.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#548

Post by nradov »

idlewan wrote: post #499
nradov wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the spontaneous reboots make my wife furious. But I think the only real solution is for MS to enhance Windows to allow updates without rebooting. This is obviously a huge engineering challenge but it should be achievable, at least for the vast majority of updates.

That's not a huge engineering challenge. Every single linux distro has been doing it since forever.

Forever? Hot kernel patching only really arrived in Linux 4.0.

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#549

Post by supernovae »

vetinari wrote: post #546
supernovae wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you want to compare, i don't see ads when i use free office online or when i use google office. What i do see is that when i use outlook.com it doesn't pop down telling me to switch to Edge, but when i use Gmail its always telling me to switch to edge. Have you actually used MS products in comparison to google? didn't think so..

So you were never bugged to use Edge, after you launched Chrome or Firefox? (Like this: https://superuser.com/questions/1146123/disable-microsoft-ed... ). Or your preferences for the default browser were never reset to Edge after some update ("accidentally")? Windows is the paid one here.

I am only bugged once I install what I want to use as default browser. Not everyday.

YouTube, Gmail, Google et all have a dropdown advertisement asking me to switch to chrome no matter which browser I user that isn't chrome..

Lets also not forget that MS apps show up on google store, apple store and are fully cross platform whereas google is selective in what it supports. We're at a day and age where Microsoft has Cortana, One Drive, Office, Bing, Skype, Photos and so much more on iOS, Windows, Android and people are telling me that MS is bad when google is good (and is far from as cross platform as ms is) I just say use whatever, but if people want to nit pick about "Ads" that everyone does without knowing how everyone does it, that's lame. MS has a TON of "Free stuff" that isn't always dropping toasts to switch browsers, switch to chrome so on and so forth..

If people have so much energy to hate on something, that should be directed at sloppy companies like Yahoo that actually are detrimental to security/safety..

Re: Don't tell people to turn off Windows Update

#550

Post by supernovae »

MertsA wrote: post #476
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Can you name a time when Apple or a prominent Linux distro has pulled any of this crap? Yes, unfortunately. Ubuntu served Amazon ads in the dash search. No idea if they're still there (I use Fedora) but it's not like they had to ask anyone what they thought of it to be well aware that the majority of their users would think that sucks. Apple? Well now- that's the company that continuously tries to force its users…

Fair point, but at least when Canonical was doing it it was just searching Amazon for something relevant to your query. All of the outrage was that doing this meant that Amazon would get searches for stuff like local file names that presented an information leak. Canonical also proxied these searches so Amazon didn't actually get enough information to tie a search back to a particular user. As for Apple though, I dis…

Microsoft isn't injecting adware, spyware or malware into the OS either.
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