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The Dark Side of Doctoring

ericlevi.com

211–220 of 241 posts

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe OT, but pilots have a lot of time off between shifts and it's starting to come to light that their depression rates are much higher than anyone is comfortable admitting. This may from a different source though, since flying is very much about precise repetition and less about complex decision making (ADM is hard, but not the same level of mental stress that doctors endure), you eventually realize that you're a…

Pilots have more incentive to manage their fatigue: if they screw up, they die.

It's way more complex than that though. The regulations exist because companies were pushing pilots to do more than they could handle, leading to a number of high profile crashes. Yes, the pilots are incentivized to manage fatigue but it's like any other profession, it's easy to get complacent.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great until a patient dies and you have to inform their families. You are keeping a living being in a state between life and death chemically while they are undergoing massive trauma. Do you know how much their malpractice insurance is? It's not just hard work to become a doctor. It's hard work and sustained excellence. You don't just put in the hours, you have consume an enormous amount of information and are t…

You are keeping a living being in a state between life and death chemically while they are undergoing massive trauma. Why can't this be automated?

Its almost exactly analogous to being an airline pilot, everything easy enough to automate was automated multiple human generations ago, now the primary purpose of the human is judgment calls, emergencies, monitoring, what boils down to non-computer systems administration using hopefully sterile biochemical machinery rather than CPUs and disks, equipment failures ...

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#213
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing that the "free market" can solve healthcare given that the demand for it is more inelastic than pretty much any other product.

The demand for food is also pretty inelastic, yet the free market seems to handle that fine.

Food is extremely predictable. Expensive medical care is not. Unfortunately the emergency / end of life care is by far the most expensive. You can get maybe a thousand flight physicals for the cost of one really good heart attack.

Also once "the system" has its claws in you, you can't leave in practice even if its theoretically legally possible. My MiL goes in with stomach upset vomiting urgent care, next thing you know she's getting admitted something to do with gallbladder removal. In theory she legally could have vomited her way out of the hospital with an IV attached into the parking lot to another, cheaper hospital to have her gallbladder removed (or whatever it was) but in practice this isn't happening.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#214

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

It's well known within the medical field that being a doctor is really really tough. It takes a lot of smarts and grueling years in residency before you officially become a doctor. However it also pays incredibly well. Even moreso for specialities and surgeons, who can make over 200k a year even in low cost of living areas. Despite the difficulties of being a doctor it's harder to get into medical school than ever. T…

None of what you say negates the need to make improvements. Doctor workload impacts the quality of care, therefore we should investigate solutions and mitigate the problem where possible.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing that the "free market" can solve healthcare given that the demand for it is more inelastic than pretty much any other product.

It is absolutely NOT as inelastic as everyone assumes. Most health issues are not emergencies. I as a consumer would be perfectly happy to shop around the market, and find the best deal on healthcare, if my efforts were rewards. Unfortunately, prices are not transparent, and the costs are not payed directly by me. They are paid by my insurance provider, so why would I bother trying to reduce my bill by thousands of d…

I agree. The incentives are out of whack. Being a self-pay patient over the last several years has been enlightening. The health care people I've dealt with are generally ready to go well out of their way to help make care more affordable. Once I was given an unasked-for 55% discount on an ER visit. (They're happy they don't have to deal with an insurance company!)

I've heard that people with high-deductible plans are now finding it advantageous to just say they are self-pay to get the discounts.

For comparison shopping, healthcarebluebook.com can give an average price for a certain procedure in your area.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been angst about medical school admissions for decades. Med school admission really is the hurdle to get over in the US. There are more residency spots than US MD graduates to fill them. By a wide margin. There's a strong medical education research unit in the UK (Edinburgh?); I remember one of their reports on a series of med student interviews making the observation that it was unnerving how the top perfo…

In recent years residency slots have become the bottleneck.

The times are a' changin'

Dr. Emory Brown's work out if U Mass in anesthesia is a data point for this. He claims to have a working general anesthesia machine. From the talks and data of his I have seen, it really does work. Yes, it's not good for a pediatric car accident victims, but for tonsillectomies or proctology exams, you know 'routine' general anesthesia, the thing works great. He says that he uses it in his own surgery suite with better 'results' than a human can obtain.

Yeah, it's 10 years out, maybe 20. But this trend of replacing doctors with robots (and getting better outcomes) is not going away. So, that there is a current bottleneck may be true, but in the near future, we just won't need doctors for a lot of areas of medicine.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#217

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

It's well known within the medical field that being a doctor is really really tough. It takes a lot of smarts and grueling years in residency before you officially become a doctor. However it also pays incredibly well. Even moreso for specialities and surgeons, who can make over 200k a year even in low cost of living areas. Despite the difficulties of being a doctor it's harder to get into medical school than ever. T…

> However it also pays incredibly well. Even moreso for specialities and surgeons, who can make over 200k a year even in low cost of living areas. Despite the difficulties of being a doctor it's harder to get into medical school than ever. The difficulties are not deterring med students.

I wonder how many doctors would be up for "sharing work (and compensation)" - in other words, would a doctor be OK with dropping his comp to $150K (from $200K) so the savings can be used to add a third more doctors to the staff? The "relief" in working conditions may well be worth it, for the doctor's sanity of course, but also for the patients (and all of the benefits down the line from having fewer mistakes, etc).

It's obviously not the only dimension that can be played with to help, but it's one that could be fairly straightforward to implement, as long as there is enough supply of applicants to increase the workforce.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#218
Related: http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2017/05/12/boston-electroni...

I always see people ragging on EMRs. They're inefficient, have poor UX, require way too much documentation, etc. These are all fair criticisms, but I don't think people spend enough time asking why. Why are all the major EMR systems shitty in exactly the same way?

I think there's 2 main parts to the answer. The first is the sales process. The people selling EMRs to hospitals aren't selling their product to clinicians, they're selling their brand to the hospital administration. It's like the saying "nobody ever got fired for choosing Oracle", but far worse. The end result is years-long implementation processes, broken promises, and terrible tools that are optimized to allow the hospital to fire a few members of the low-level administrative staff (billing, coding, etc) instead of providing better care to the community they serve.

The second part of this problem is overregulation. The justification is that EMRs should be able to meet a certain level of functionality. Based on personal experience working with these regulations, I'm convinced that the real reason these certifications exist is to prevent new players from entering the market. They are very much in the spirit of "well all these legacy systems do [something], so _obviously_ everybody else should too" without ever leaving room to come up with a better solution. They shackle you to terrible design choices and assume that all hospitals, from a 10-bed critical access hospital to a 500-bed academic medical center, should all be run the same way. And worst of all, they make it impossible to design a system based on what the HOSPITAL needs, because half of the system is devoted to what the GOVERNMENT needs. Kind of like how people complain about interoperability between electronic medical systems. So the government introduces legislation to mandate interoperability, by requiring implementation of poorly-defined "standards" (designed by committees comprised mostly of, you guessed it, representatives from legacy vendors). From personal experience, I can say that every. single. one. of the interfaces required for federal certification is completely unable to be reused by actual hospitals. But that's the entire purpose, that's exactly why lobbyists paid so much money to get the regulations passed in the first place! If potential new competition has to sink thousands of man-hours every year into building useless functionality, that's thousands of man-hours that didn't go into making their product competitive and disrupting the marketshare of legacy systems. Meanwhile, legacy systems are maintaining their market share, not by improving their product and helping healthcare providers do a better job. Instead they're actively creating situations where smaller hospitals are forced to choose between buying onto the licenses of larger hospitals or shutting their doors.

Obviously this is all just my personal opinion.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#219

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

If handoff risk were inversely related to shift length then one would expect European hospitals that adhere to the EU Working Time Directive to have significantly worse outcomes than both US and UK.

Is this the case? Or do they not adhere to the working time directive?

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#220
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western medicine has turned into a ponzi scheme. The verifiable proof of this is to have an elderly family member in a nursing home who goes through the usual monthly trips to the hospital from 'falling'. While Medicare covers almost all of it, it became so nauseating to read the outrageous EOB totals that I tried to put a end to it - I requested that unless the on call nurse (after hours) or physician (during busine…

We have two family members in an assisted car facility for almost eight years now, and between the two of them, they've tapped Medicare for just under $700K. Together, the sum of both their incomes throughout their entire working lives never totaled that amount. Oh, but it gets worse. It's bad enough that the government is being bilked for hundreds of thousands of dollars on behalf of those without the ability to pay…

This isn't much the case anymore from my experience. A generation ago I recall it being general knowledge that if a loved one had to go into the nursing home you would bankrupt and have medicaid pay. A relative tried that this recently and is close to destitute as a result.
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