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After 15 years of practice..

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Re: After 15 years of practice..

#51

Post by jobeirne »

cowmoo wrote: post #41
caryme wrote: post #31

Like any instrument, technique plays an extremely important role in singing. Poor intonation is less an indicator of a good voice and more of good technique. Of course no one would criticize a girl who picked up a cello and just started playing for just not being a cellist, but also no one would advise her to simply practice alone. The best advice is for that girl to find a good teacher and get some lessons. I find i…

"Yes it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good." Yes, this is true and oft-repeated mantra on YC News. But it begs the question, how does one practice the "proper" technique (I mean after all, doesn't everyone want to follow the correct form of shooting hoops/strumming a guitar chord, but most people don't have a dedicated shooting coach/guitar…

You're not using ``begs the question'' properly.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#52

Post by zzzmarcus »

cowmoo wrote: post #41
caryme wrote: post #31

Like any instrument, technique plays an extremely important role in singing. Poor intonation is less an indicator of a good voice and more of good technique. Of course no one would criticize a girl who picked up a cello and just started playing for just not being a cellist, but also no one would advise her to simply practice alone. The best advice is for that girl to find a good teacher and get some lessons. I find i…

"Yes it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good." Yes, this is true and oft-repeated mantra on YC News. But it begs the question, how does one practice the "proper" technique (I mean after all, doesn't everyone want to follow the correct form of shooting hoops/strumming a guitar chord, but most people don't have a dedicated shooting coach/guitar…

There's a great, short book on how to practice while making "good" mistakes. It's called "The Perfect Wrong Note." I've been found it helpful while teaching myself to pick the banjo.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#53

Post by Sukotto »

Three points

1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho excellent) Study hacks blog http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice

2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type. (another great read)

3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas?

Like this, for example:

  My vision of the road to mastery:
  
  - start with the fundamentals
  
  - get a solid foundation fueled by the understanding of
    the principles of your discipline
  
  - expand and refine your repertoire, guided by your 
    individual predispositions
  
  - while keeping in touch, however abstractly, with what 
    you feel to be the essential core of the art
  
  What results is a network of deeply internalized, 
  interconnected knowledge that expands from a central, 
  personal locus point.
  
  When everyone at a high level has a huge amount of 
  (technical) understanding, much of what separates the 
  great from the very good is deep presence, relaxation of 
  the conscious mind, which allows the unconscious to flow 
  unhindered.
He gets a lot of his writing posted on HN. Do you think he deliberately practices writing or is that just natural talent? After reading this story of 15 years to overnight success it really makes me wonder.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#54

Post by starkfist »

electromagnetic wrote: post #23
sahaj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unless you are a good 7' basketball player.

7' tall basketball players are only good because the game is played inefficiently. Shorter players have a distinct advantage when throwing underarm and can get ridiculous score percentages. Tall players throwing 'properly' are taking a side-shot at the goal rather than confronting the problem head on by going vertical. Basketball is such a bastardised sport that height and speed are the dominant skills at play in the…

Have you watched pro basketball since the NBA legalized zone defense in 2001? Most of the shots taken in games these days are 3 pointers. The days of Dikembe Mutumbo (or even Shaq) hanging out in the paint and doing tiptoe dunks ended about 8 years ago.

Even 7 foot guys like Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett take 40% or more of their shots from 3 point territory. Wallace shoots 35% on three pointers (30% is the "he's a good three point shooter" threshold). The real three point shooters make half of their shots... a feat of accuracy which is really fucking hard, even more so considering they also have to get to the shot and deal with defense. There is no question most basketball players are genetic freaks but anyone playing in the NBA these days is also scarily accurate.

I hate to agree that I now find the NBA kinda boring... but it's not because it's a circus act (circuses are pretty interesting, actually.) The NBA is boring because almost every player is now so superhumanly good that it's hard to imagine how difficult what they are doing really is.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#55

Post by emehrkay »

I've always felt that there is no "God-given talent" or even talent, but simply understanding. I came to this conclusion when people would ask me to draw something for them in art class and I'd explain how to do it and they'd be able to draw it themselves.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#56

Post by giardini »

While I wouldn't care to listen to him sing very long, if he's satisfied with 15 years of practice then that's OK. Whatever floats your boat.

But there's no substitute for talent. Best of all is talent + training. Humans are not _tabulae_ _rasae_ onto which anything may be written: they have significant genetic differences which are expressed as different talents/abilities. As a young boy, I could listen to music and extract and replicate melodies and chords easily (learn "by ear"), something my sister desired but could not do without a decade of intense music instruction and practice.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#57

Post by sivers »

Sukotto wrote: post #53

Three points 1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho excellent) Study hacks blog http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice 2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type. (another great read) 3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas? Like this, for example: My vision of the road to mastery: - start with the fundamentals…

Thanks! That bit you quoted is from the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, so I can't take credit for it. Great book. Really inspiring. http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning

Writing good essays/articles is something else I really aspire to, and definitely put a lot of work into. I've been studying my favorite essays by Paul Graham, Harry Beckwith, Seth Godin, and even Robert Fulghum. Those are the tops I've found in this short-form blog-length (under 2-minutes read-time) format that I like.

No other motive than the feeling of wanting to share everything I've learned before I die.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#58

Post by hyperbovine »

adammichaelc wrote: post #8

He's really good. http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3

He definitely has the technical fundamentals down, no argument there. Nevertheless, his vocal timbre and overall style don't appeal to me; he sounds exactly like what he says he is: somebody with an average voice who learned to sing well. I can think of a half dozen really jaw-dropping vocalists--the people who make me rue my mediocre singing genes--who I am certain did not work nearly as hard or as long to get where they are, yet are in every way superior singers. Anyways, my only point is, yes, the deliberate practice meme is really hot right now, but natural talent still counts for a lot. This is especially true when it comes to singing, or anything that is governed by some physical property you were born with.

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#59

Post by BRadmin »

starkfist wrote: post #54
electromagnetic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7' tall basketball players are only good because the game is played inefficiently. Shorter players have a distinct advantage when throwing underarm and can get ridiculous score percentages. Tall players throwing 'properly' are taking a side-shot at the goal rather than confronting the problem head on by going vertical. Basketball is such a bastardised sport that height and speed are the dominant skills at play in the…

Have you watched pro basketball since the NBA legalized zone defense in 2001? Most of the shots taken in games these days are 3 pointers. The days of Dikembe Mutumbo (or even Shaq) hanging out in the paint and doing tiptoe dunks ended about 8 years ago. Even 7 foot guys like Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett take 40% or more of their shots from 3 point territory. Wallace shoots 35% on three pointers (30% is the "he's…

I like what you're saying but there's some pretty gross hyperbole going on here.

You cite zone defense as though it's drastically changed the NBA - but it's rarely deployed.

You say most shots taken in games are three pointers, but they actually make up 18-22% (over the last decade) of them.

And you say KG and Rasheed take over 40% of their shots from three. Kevin Garnett takes 3.3% of his shots from downtown. For Rasheed it's just under 25%. Both are career stats....

Re: After 15 years of practice..

#60

Post by pavs »

sivers wrote: post #57
Sukotto wrote: post #53

Three points 1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho excellent) Study hacks blog http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice 2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type. (another great read) 3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas? Like this, for example: My vision of the road to mastery: - start with the fundamentals…

Thanks! That bit you quoted is from the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, so I can't take credit for it. Great book. Really inspiring. http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning Writing good essays/articles is something else I really aspire to, and definitely put a lot of work into. I've been studying my favorite essays by Paul Graham, Harry Beckwith, Seth Godin, and even Robert Fulghum. Those are the tops I've…

I just got introduced to your work from this blog post, and I have to say I simply love this song:

http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3

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