If Craigslist makes ~600M in profit , Why the hell is Forbes giving them a valuation of 3B? That's a Price to Earnings ratio of 5. That's not conservative, that's insane. Am I missing something?
I think largely because they are estimates; I think Craigslist is likely worth way more given the ubiquitous nature, high margin, low costs and the decisions to not monetize everything. That said, IMO this article is not about Craigslist but a subtle advert for the 2 "competing firms" that are mentioned. I have seen an uptick in articles about Craigslist mentioning them and had never heard of them before. Potentially…
How Craigslist Makes Money
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Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#62I remember looking up this exact question a few days ago. I really prefer to sell things like used electronics on Craigslist over eBay. I really like their business model too. They made enough to keep going, but not enough that they aspire to take over everything. It's a really simple concept, and there are very few business ideas that can pull it off.
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
If 600M is profit (not revenue), that's 400M short from 1B. That's not a bad valuation, also consider the user base is quite strong. Using both yield 3B is very conservative IMO. If you buy it for 3B, then you will get your investment worth in a couple years.
they said "most of 690M is profit" in the article. I used bayes theorem to go through all of the numbers out of 690M that I would have said "most" for, and arrived at a guess of 600M. Even if it were the lower bound of values for which the word "most" technically applies that's still earnings of 345M. An 11% a year on an investment of 3 billion. That's still insane. CL revenue is not terribly speculative.
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#64>It also charges fees to list postings in categories including ... automobiles offered by dealers This was a huge thing in my industry. I work with a lot of independent car dealers that used to list everything on their lots with Craigslist, then they started charging the dealers $5 a pop and many of them just quit using it. There are too many other car listing sites out there now that offer more than just an ad (vehi…
I'm happier for it, as otherwise you wind up with garbage ads from the smaller lots. For example, they'll list the monthly payment instead of the price, which makes wading through 'sort by increasing price' a PITA. Or they'll put a bunch of SEO keywords into the ad such that their vehicle shows up on a search that it shouldn't.
Hmm, I'm interested in a Subaru. (I search Subaru) 500 listings of the same BMW x5 come up.
Nevermind, let's see what Hondas are on the market. 500 listings of the same BMW x5 come up.
I throw my computer out the window.
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think largely because they are estimates; I think Craigslist is likely worth way more given the ubiquitous nature, high margin, low costs and the decisions to not monetize everything. That said, IMO this article is not about Craigslist but a subtle advert for the 2 "competing firms" that are mentioned. I have seen an uptick in articles about Craigslist mentioning them and had never heard of them before. Potentially…
I read the article and still haven't heard of them...
"craigslist" + "offerUp"
You will see a lot of articles about how Craigslist makes money; is dangerous; potential revenue models; is going to finally get dethroned.
The one that made me think a campaign to promote these 2 companies was about bad site design.
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#66Craigslist has one of the worst UX. How come has it not been improved in years? Why doesn't Craigslist get any competition? It should be trivial to implement something that's 10 times better...
> It should be trivial to implement something that's 10 times better... What would you be optimizing for? What changes could you make that wouldn't increase the page size or slow the loading speed?
- Stop using abbreviations everywhere (at least in the French version)
- Add structure and semantics to content (not just some blank text fields where people type arbitrary descriptions)
- Improve classification using image recognition and mechanical turks
- Make an open API available
- Get rid of sub-domains
- Add trust/reputation mechanisms
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#67Craigslist has one of the worst UX. How come has it not been improved in years? Why doesn't Craigslist get any competition? It should be trivial to implement something that's 10 times better...
Craigslist is so popular because of its simplicity. It's quick. It's light. It's easy.
It works and it works well.
I don't think there are many potential customers out there thinking "You know what the world needs? Craigslist for web 2.0 with AJAX, JSON, HTML5 and Flash elements."
If you think I'm misreading the marketplace, please feel free to launch your own competitor. I'll happily check it out, at least once.
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#68I was wondering how they got that number; basically they use a $690M revenue guess from a third party, apply a valuation multiple from eBay and then multiply by the 42% Newmark owns. Craigslist is unique; it isn't entirely profit driven and as far as Alexa 1000 sites; it might have stayed closest to it's original founding philosophy. I am not sure how they make money; iirc it was only a few select markets and select…
It's not that dubious. The methodology is as simple and straightforward as it gets:
> AIM's Zollman, who called his company's Craigslist revenue estimate "conservative," said the AIM Group counts up listings for each category in various markets and then multiplies that by the known fee associated with that listing. (Fees can range from $7 to $75 per posting, depending on location.)...As the founder of 3Taps, Kidd built an interface for programmers that pulled classifieds data from Craigslist and was able get an accurate picture of the total number of listings on the site. He published a 2011 white paper that pegged Craigslist's annual revenue at $300 million, a number he said has certainly risen as Craigslist has increased or rolled out more fees.
This is hard to screw up, and if anything, counting listings ought to be a drastic underestimate - crawls of a hostile large high-turnover website will be incomplete, and Craigslist has other potential revenue sources like selling feed data to hedge funds or real estate or HR agencies.
This makes it all very puzzling. As the quoted employee says:
> "Eventually we realized we were making a lot of money and it was more than we needed to just cover costs," the employee said, noting at one point in the early 2000s Craigslist was making $40,000 a day on Bay Area jobs ads alone. "We could all do the math, and we'd wonder where all the money would go."
So CL is making at a bare minimum $300 million a year by 2017, of which a large fraction is profit; the few employees say there are no major capital investments a la Amazon (and no one has ever pointed to major software or hardware investments attributed to Craigslist that I've ever seen), and you never hear of Craigslist billionaires or millionaires aside from Newmark, so the profit isn't simply being spent on datacenters or employee stock compensation; thus, around half would go to Newmark if it's distributed as dividends, so he could have an income of easily >$50m a year over the past 7 years after taxes or >$350m on top of whatever he earned before 2011 on that increasing revenue. The Craigslist Charitable Fund is disbursing $10m/year or less (and donations to that wouldn't be taxed), so that leaves >$300m (7 * 50-10). But Newmark claims to be worth much less than $400m total. So... where does it all go?
It's hard to see how two different groups counting listings could be high by an order of magnitude, what Craigslist could be spending it on, or what Newmark is spending it on, unless he's making huge anonymous donations every year through other nonprofits (but why avoid his own CCF?) or simply lying (for privacy to avoid the attention or maintain his self-image, or just in order to make look bad "a fake market intelligence group who I won’t name").
Re: How Craigslist Makes Money
#69I remember looking up this exact question a few days ago. I really prefer to sell things like used electronics on Craigslist over eBay. I really like their business model too. They made enough to keep going, but not enough that they aspire to take over everything. It's a really simple concept, and there are very few business ideas that can pull it off.
Craig probably did some math and found out that even if he lives to 800 years old, he will not be able to spend it all so why go nuts? This way everything is manageable and he doesn't need to report to anyone.
I find it hard to imagine hitting $10 million and not just dropping everything and spending the rest of my life on random hobbies and traveling. Maybe that's why I don't have $10 million?