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More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

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Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#121
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave a vital piece of criteria for the assistance you're too busy to discuss; I didn't insinuate anything. Also, you clearly didn't read the passage I posted, which is cool, but lots of the points your making are addressed there (and I believe, shown to be faulty logic). Have a good one! 'profits for owners'... yawn... 'shoot them the second their job is obsolete'... your inner communist is showing ;)

Said the guy who said we shouldn't do a thing for people displaced by automation. If that's the case, and they're unable to get jobs elsewhere, what else should we do with them? Just leave them to starve on their own?

I almost feel like you aren't responding to my comments... The questions you're asking have been addressed, and I have even posted an extremely famous piece of literature which can explain your missteps better than I ever could. If you don't want to acknowledge my points, not sure what the point of discussion with you is...

Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that doesen't solve the problem. For single payer healthcare to work people will need to make more money. The more money they make on mundane things the more likely they are to be replaced by automation. It's a vicious cycle.

People make less money in Canada, the UK, Netherlands, etc. which all have single payer. It's cheaper. I'm not saying it's easy to get there. But it can be done by popular will.

The bottom i.e. the majority of workers makes way way less money than in the UK, Canada etc.

Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Econ and politics is rife with semantics, and they're very important, and sometimes central to the conversation. Either way, I think you're the one making the claims that need substantiation. Years of studying econ hasn't provided me clear evidence that upholds the idea that "economies have goals" other than "economies tend to grow in material wealth" – and even that has subtleties too many to thoroughly discuss on a…

Economic systems have goals. They're systems devised by men. They don't just throw spaghetti against the wall and call it an economic system. Socialism was designed to accomplish some set of goals, capitalism was designed to accomplish some set of goals. Not really sure how this is an argument...

[deleted]

Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#124
The key statement in the article is the last: "Bottom line: Robots do replace workers. On the other hand, some industries that don't automate end up losing workers anyway, because their costs are too high and their customers go elsewhere. For workers, robots are only part of the problem."

There are several key underlying points:

1. Work flows to where it can be done cheapest. It always has.

2. Value is relative. Something is worth what someone else will pay to have it done. That includes the worker's labor. Large numbers of workers are currently being told "What you do isn't worth what you want to be paid to do it.", as jobs relocate or get automated out of existence.

3. Supply and demand rules. When demand is high and supply is low, prices are high. As supply increases, prices drop.

4. Everyone wants the best deal they can get.

Work flowing elsewhere has been going on for a very long time. Before automation and robotics came along, and work had to be performed manually by human workers, employers had incentives to locate where the work was done in places with lower labor costs. Locating in non-union areas was a first step. Moving offshore was next. (Ask what used to the the International Ladies Garment Worker Union about it.)

China bootstrapped itself from Third World agrarian nation to First World industrial power by leveraging low labor costs. The moved peasants off the farm to the cities to become an industrial workforce. Unlike the experience of Russia which did the same thing under the Bolsheviks after the Russian Revolution, coercion wasn't needed. Those factory jobs had better hours, better working conditions, and paid better than being a peasant on the farm. People migrated en mass to get those jobs. Chinese workers got paid a fraction of what Western workers would get for the same jobs, but it cost far less to live in China. Those factory jobs were a step up for those who had them.

But China is suffering from its own success. The supply of peasants on the farm is drying up, manufacturers must compete for labor, pay is rising in consequence, and China is no longer the low cost producer. A major Chinese manufacturer announced a full court press into robotics a while back in consequence.

The inflection point we see now is that higher level jobs than assembly line worker can be and are being automated, and "knowledge work" is flowing to places where it can be done cheaper, with outsourcing an increasingly common practice.

And "everyone wants the best deal they can get" is a driver. Unless you are one of the one tenth of one percent who doesn't care what something costs, you are probably on a budget. You have fixed costs you must pay, like rent and food, and variable costs come out of what's left of your income. The Internet provides all sorts of tools for locating the best deals, and price will be a factor. It may not be the only factor on which you make a purchase decision, but all else being equal, lower price wins.

So outfits who make things or provide services have a strong interest in reducing costs to be able to provide lower prices, and lowering labor costs is a goal. The fact that we can get many things cheaper than we used to is a consequence of the factors mentioned above. A question I normally ask folks who want jobs returned to the US is "How much more are you willing to pay for what you buy to see that happen? You will pay more." I don't normally get meaningful answers.

Complaints about immigration that reduce to "Those will work cheaper than I do and take my job!" raise similar issues. The people who want to buy whatever you make or do are on a budget just like you are. If the immigrant you worry about can do the job as well as you can and will charge less to do it, explain why they should pay you more? What's in it for them?

I don't have pat answers to the problem of job loss. I just think we aren't asking the right questions. ______ Dennis

Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#125
post #64
post #12

Industries that lose jobs due to automation cause job growth in more slowly automating industries: http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/10/24/13327014/productivit... This has been the pattern for over 200 years of labour-saving automation: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6717/economics/the-luddite...

That's not accurate. People in the past worked longer hours,with less vacations, didn't have longer education or retirement etc. So they've worked less. Further more , what we do know from history is that technology does cause transition periods with heavy unemployment and other forms of suffering. But: in the past ,things happened much slower. The term "the industrial revolution", for example, was created after the…

>People in the past worked longer hours,with less vacations, didn't have longer education or retirement etc. So they've worked less.

The per capita aggregate demand for labour has massively increased since 200 years ago. If you divide the amount of wages paid out in the aggregate by the number of people, you see it has increased something on the order of 20X. People work less because they have less need to work, as a result of much higher levels of wages/wealth. If they so chose, there would be plenty of work they could do, and that there is much higher levels of demand (as measured by constant dollars paid out) for it than there was in the past.

>Further more , what we do know from history is that technology does cause transition periods with heavy unemployment and other forms of suffering.

Technology has not historically caused transition periods with heavy unemployment.

Re: More Robots, Fewer Jobs: capital vs. labor in production

#126
post #12

Industries that lose jobs due to automation cause job growth in more slowly automating industries: http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/10/24/13327014/productivit... This has been the pattern for over 200 years of labour-saving automation: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6717/economics/the-luddite...

simply not true. The number of new jobs created decade over decade have gone down and the politicans have redefined what constitute a job, most today are temporary. You are ironically making the fallacy of the luddite falkacy. Jobs have been created in the world, not in the west. Unemployment numbers are based on temp jobs no real jobs.

People work fewer hours but the aggregate demand for labour per capita has increased substantially, meaning the average person earns far more per day than people in the past, working fewer hours per day.

If people chose to work more hours, the hourly wage would decrease somewhat, but total wages paid out would still increase, since it would contribute to higher levels of production.

In other words, people work less because they choose to work less, not because there is less demand for their labour. There is objectively more aggregate demand, as measured by constant dollars spent on it, for labour per capita.

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