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Windows 10 on ARM

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Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#241
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although this is somewhat of the reverse in architectures, going from CISCy to RISCy. Apple did the same when they moved from 68K to PPC. The PPC would run the 68K code in emulation or, if it was a "fat binary" with both 68K and PPC code, it would just load the functionally equivalent PPC binary and run it. There were utilities to compress executables that deleted the versions not for the current CPU - very handy i…

In that case, the PPC had probably a 5-10x perf advantage over the 68k's people were upgrading from. So, it wasn't noticeable, so if in the end the emulated code was only running at the speed of the 68k it was replacing it was a net win every time it entered the kernel and ran native code. ARM doesn't have this advantage over X86, at best its probably somewhere around 1/2 the absolute performance. Of course intel has…

I don't think any ARM emulating x86 code will be able to get to Xeon E7 performance anytime soon. May get close to low-end x86's with JIT and jumping to native mode on every OS call (with some clever adjustment to data structures, if they differ/misalign).

And yes. At that time, PPCs ran rings around x86's and 68K's.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#242

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned FX!32. That was the binary translation layer that Windows NT on DEC Alpha used back in 1996 or so to run x86 Windows binaries. There is an old Digital Technical Journal article about it here: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol9num1/vol9num1art1.pd... Everything old is new again!

[deleted]

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#243
post #89

Please correct me If I am wrong. But I think with WSL and this, Microsoft proved they are much much more superior than Google and Apple when it comes to serious system software development (they have to be, they have developed one of the most complex Kernel of the all times and maintained and improved it for decades. Yes I am linux guy too. But Widnows Kernel is extremely complex and well architectured piece of softw…

I agree this is harder and more impressive, but I thought Google's idea to run the entire Android framework at near-native speeds on Chrome OS inside a container was quite a smart technical solution as well.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#244

I'm out of the loop on ARM. Can somebody explain the significance of it?

It means Intel won't have just AMD Ryzen's great performance/dollar to worry about now, but also ARM chips' even better performance/dollar. If you don't think this is a real problem for Intel look back at why Intel failed in the mobile market.

Yes, Qualcomm was "established", but few would've thought Intel can't at least beat lesser known competitors such as MediaTek. It couldn't because Atom chips and Intel's cost structures in general are much higher than those of ARM chip makers - to the point where it prohibits Intel from competing head-on with ARM chip makers. Intel invested at least $10-$15 billion in the mobile market, and it only had 2% market share to show for it at the end. You can't even blame LTE modem technology for it, because Intel actually had better LTE tech than MediaTek, second only to Qualcomm. If anything, it should've helped Intel become Qualcomm's main competitor.

For now, we'll only see competition between ARM chips and Intel chips in budget laptops (which happen to be the most popular type of laptops), but with Moore's Law dying and Intel hitting a ceiling on performance/core, there's no reason why ARM chips can't catch-up to Intel at the higher-end levels of performance, too.

And don't forget that right now ARM chip makers are still building first for smartphones. That means they try to have a 4-5W TDP for the entire SoC at most. They haven't even tried to build a chip that has 15W, 30W or 45W TDP for a laptop. But if things go well enough for them in budget laptops, I could see them start building those types of chips, too.

This is also MediaTek's story in the mobile market. It started out competing with Qualcomm only in $100 smartphones with low-cost chips, and now it has just announced a 10nm high-end chip (Helio X30) that will compete against Snapdragon 835. It may not be quite as good still, but it should be close enough (the closest MediaTek has gotten, in fact). I imagine Microsoft will begin supporting that chip (or its successors) in Windows 10 soon enough, too.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#245

Man, that League of Legends desktop icon on the test machine is such a tease. I would love to know what the status of x86 gaming on ARM devices would be, especially for something competitive that runs on most anything like LoL

They already shown LoL and Photoshop running on ARM a few months ago in a demo video. Google it :)

I could not find it for some reason. Could you provide the link please?

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#246
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think not. It finally showcases the flexibility he put in to the core of NT.

Not that "finally", Windows NT was designed specifically to support POSIX and OS/2 alongside Win32 apps and the first few versions actually shipped it.

Though WSL required more work than WSU or OS/2: they needed a new lightweight process model, for example. That's more serious internal work.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#247

Man, that League of Legends desktop icon on the test machine is such a tease. I would love to know what the status of x86 gaming on ARM devices would be, especially for something competitive that runs on most anything like LoL

They already shown LoL and Photoshop running on ARM a few months ago in a demo video. Google it :)

I have seen the photoshop video, but not League of Legends - got a link?

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#248

Great potential for a Win10 phablet I can develop on that also lets me make phonecalls. Not for big projects, but an anywhere device. Does Win10 support non VoIP calls?

(1) Windows 10 smartphones currently make cellular voice calls so that feature is already in the mobile version of Windows 10.

(2) There's no reason why Samsung or one of the Chinese manufacturers couldn't make a Windows 10 phablet. Microsoft made Windows free on small-screen devices, so I assume it will continue to be free, or at worst, "zero paid".

[Microsoft had a Windows offering where OEMs paid $10 for the OS but got a $10 rebate for setting Bing as the default search engine. So technically, Windows wasn't free, but OEMs didn't pay anything to use it.]

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#249
post #207
post #44

Microsoft is one of the few companies that really grok Systems Software right now.

They always did, but FOSS people always downplay the work that Microsoft Systems Research does, as if having a clone of an existing OS and UIs was some kind of innovation.

And you get every situation to shit on FOSS people and praise ms, right? Do you get paid for this?
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