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Windows 10 on ARM

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Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#71

Post by wolfgke »

kyberias wrote: post #59
wolfgke wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5. How do they solve the problem that x86 has a much stronger memory model than ARM, which makes emulation of multithreaded x86 code pretty hard without introducing a huge performance disadvantage?

What do you mean, could you elaborate on that a bit? How is x86 "memory model stronger" and why would application code be affected?

For a short overview read:

> http://preshing.com/20120930/weak-vs-strong-memory-models/

If you want more details of memory models of some CPU architectures, read

> http://www.rdrop.com/users/paulmck/scalability/paper/whymb.2...

Note that "x86 OOStore" is not a model that you should be concerned about (according to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/linux.kernel/2dBrSeI... it was only used on IDT WinChip)

For a perspective on memory barriers for different memory models with a focus on the Linux kernel look at

> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/memory-barriers.txt

If you are specifically interested in some subtile details of the x86 memory model, have a look at

> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/weakmemory/index3.html

Best begin with

> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/weakmemory/cacm.pdf

---

I hope this should give you enough information to start reading up on the subject.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#72

Post by mohamedattahri »

doomlaser wrote: post #51
poizan42 wrote: post #19

For any Microsoft insiders with knowledge about this, a few questions: 1. In the talk they claim that they get "near native" speed from the translation. Can we have some real number of what can be expected? What about warm up time? 2. Is the x86 translation layer only available in user space, or can x86 drivers be loaded for hardware that doesn't have arm drivers yet (or the manufacturer doesn't care about making the…

I remember when Apple supported PPC emulation of applications when they made the switch to Intel x86 for a major OS release cycle. I was impressed that the speed there was, in fact, near native enough that the transition was essentially completely seamless. Although this is somewhat of the reverse in architectures, going from CISCy to RISCy. The only thing that concerns em about recent Microsoft developments is that…

They're definitely going in the direction of the walled garden strategy, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. For the vast majority of users, computers are safer with walled gardens. For the more advanced users, developers can always offer their apps through a different distribution channel.

In the case of Windows in particular, it's a chance to leave the installation wizards, the registry and the DLL hell behind and use the packaged model that macOS adopted from the get go.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#73

Post by rbanffy »

doomlaser wrote: post #51
poizan42 wrote: post #19

For any Microsoft insiders with knowledge about this, a few questions: 1. In the talk they claim that they get "near native" speed from the translation. Can we have some real number of what can be expected? What about warm up time? 2. Is the x86 translation layer only available in user space, or can x86 drivers be loaded for hardware that doesn't have arm drivers yet (or the manufacturer doesn't care about making the…

I remember when Apple supported PPC emulation of applications when they made the switch to Intel x86 for a major OS release cycle. I was impressed that the speed there was, in fact, near native enough that the transition was essentially completely seamless. Although this is somewhat of the reverse in architectures, going from CISCy to RISCy. The only thing that concerns em about recent Microsoft developments is that…

> Although this is somewhat of the reverse in architectures, going from CISCy to RISCy.

Apple did the same when they moved from 68K to PPC. The PPC would run the 68K code in emulation or, if it was a "fat binary" with both 68K and PPC code, it would just load the functionally equivalent PPC binary and run it.

There were utilities to compress executables that deleted the versions not for the current CPU - very handy in low-power 68Ks

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#74

Post by wand3r »

artmageddon wrote: post #55
wand3r wrote: post #35

I am seriously impressed with Microsoft. I haven't used windows in years but they are releasing tons of useful things. VSCode is great on Ubuntu and every version of OS X I have run it on. Plus tons of other cool things like bash on win; etc. Also, I have a bizspark Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS

> Also, I have a bizspark Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS How so?

I am not a super user of AWS and have light demands as far as the console. I find the documentation and dashboard pretty decent; burnrate monitor and basic services(vm, ip, storage) easy enough. The naming and requirements-- and also the split up of resources v. Classic is pretty annoying.

On AWS I was through a sea of services I don't need w/ poor docs, clunky configs and a lot of security tiers. Their pricing is baffling and I really just think it looks terrible. Azure has similar issues; but I can navigate it better and feel more comfortable w) it

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#75

Post by wfunction »

Can someone explain how they are achieving high execution speed? I would have expected the speeds (or at least the start-up times, if we have dynamic recompilation) for x86 on ARM to be outright abysmal.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#76

Post by pjc50 »

MrMember wrote: post #64
wand3r wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I get it; but could you expand a bit on what you mean?

A phone form factor device that can run a full desktop OS, or something close to it. Canonical was getting close with Ubuntu Touch but that's essentially dead now. I don't want a gimped version of Windows like I'd get with Continuum, I don't want a "desktop-like" version of Android like Samsung is doing, I want a full version of Linux or Windows that can run desktop applications.

How small do you want it? The Linx tablets do this but the smallest is 7".

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#77

Post by wfunction »

valarauca1 wrote: post #67
kyberias wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean, could you elaborate on that a bit? How is x86 "memory model stronger" and why would application code be affected?

Strength of memory model refers to concurrency guarantees. Also gets deep into caching architectures, OOO, and inter-cpu communications. This is a deep rabbit hole because modern processors are speculatively executing THOUSANDS of instructions ahead. So what you have/haven't written to memory is slightly existential. Here is a good blog post about it http://preshing.com/20120930/weak-vs-strong-memory-models/ The TLDR…

Thousands? I thought it was more like a dozen or two at most. Any link on that?

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#78

Post by cpobrien »

jdc0589 wrote: post #57
wand3r wrote: post #35

I am seriously impressed with Microsoft. I haven't used windows in years but they are releasing tons of useful things. VSCode is great on Ubuntu and every version of OS X I have run it on. Plus tons of other cool things like bash on win; etc. Also, I have a bizspark Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS

> Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS I actually disagree with this pretty strongly. The Azure UI seems flashy for the sake of being flashy. The AWS UI is much easier to navigate and use for me. Azure's UI is more unified though. There are some random AWS services (e.g. sqs) that have a totally different UI theme going on. Edit : the Azure UI is only more unified if you ignore the f…

I have to +1 this. Not only is it easier to navigate, AWS always manages to run pretty smoothly, while Azure's website makes my 2014 Macbook Pro slow to a crawl. It often takes up to a second for a CSS :hover effect to appear!

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#79

Post by Grazester »

sxates wrote: post #7

There have been rumors of a 'surface phone' that runs Win 10 (not mobile) for a couple years now. Most expected some kind of future Intel chip to enable that, but ARM support certainly opens up the possibility. Just what Windows phones need - another OS change!

Fear not Windows Phone is just about dead.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#80

Post by artmageddon »

wand3r wrote: post #74
artmageddon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I have a bizspark Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS How so?

I am not a super user of AWS and have light demands as far as the console. I find the documentation and dashboard pretty decent; burnrate monitor and basic services(vm, ip, storage) easy enough. The naming and requirements-- and also the split up of resources v. Classic is pretty annoying. On AWS I was through a sea of services I don't need w/ poor docs, clunky configs and a lot of security tiers. Their pricing is ba…

Thanks for your input on this. I'm considering getting my AWS Developer certificate so I'm glad to have some warning about it going in..
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