Live data from Hacker News

Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

blog.cloudflare.com

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#41
Most patents are probably not valid, and most patents used in licensing offers / threats are probably not strong enough to avoid being invalidated or found not infringed if litigated, but the would-be licensor / troll counts on the threatened party to settle rather than pay millions of dollars for litigation.

While there aren't any easy tactical solutions and a policy fix is a dim hope, we should be able to at least partly solve the problem by training an AI to do automated and thorough prior art search and analysis relevant to a patent, so a lot of the legwork of a patent litigation threat becomes orders of magnitude faster and cheaper, and it becomes vastly easier and less intimidating for a trolling target to respond to a patent threat like this, and quickly get their focus and resources back to developing their technology. Software eats patent attorneys, and reduces the burden of patents on the technology community.

(disclaimers: I am a patent attorney and I'm currently working full-time on coding a patent search & analysis AI service, this is not legal advice, etc.)

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#42
post #3

The "new breed" is described as: """Blackbird combines both a law firm and intellectual property rights holder into a single entity. In doing so, they remove legal fees from their cost structure and can bring lawsuits of potentially dubious merit without having to bear any meaningful cost. """ Prenda Law already patented that breed. Expect infringement suit shortly.

Prenda Law were copyright trolls, not patent trolls. (Also, Prenda Law were actively inducing the infringement that thhey were prosecuting, and inventing shell companies as fake clients to conceal their own interest in the litigation.)

Your effort at being pedantic falls rather flat, as the "new breed" was described as "combines both a law firm and intellectual property rights holder into a single entity". The description did not specify patents.

Clearly, the Prenda-Structure patent reads on this infringing Blackbird organization.

(Also, it was a joke.)

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make it retroactive i.e. you don't have to already be a member to get protection. you can choose to buy in after you've been sent a letter So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court?

> So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, Plenty of people have already gotten a letter; if they all pooled their resources they'd have a decent defense fund already. > , or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court? This one, I agree, is harder. Best I can propose is a minimum 5 year membership once you've been sued. Or tweak it some other way so that membership is slightly cheaper, or a…

Or, incentivize membership by having the group own a bunch of patents, and then sue people who don't pay their membership!

The ultimate protection racket! "You've got a nice product here, shame if a lawsuit happened to it..."

Wouldn't you know, it already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#44

If patents help society, then patent trolling is not always a destructive process. In fact it's how things ought to work, if you accept the premise (which I don't). And if it's sometimes a good thing, actually it's not illegitimate to hold in an otherwise unproductive company. It's just like owning a bar of gold: does nothing for anyone, but it's an asset for the owner.

Only if it is a "non-practicing entity" that actually created an invention of use - something that taught or enabled the subsequent inventions.

A "patent troll" is not just non-practicing, but also someone who didn't create anything of value, but wants to charge tolls anyway.

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#45

If patents help society, then patent trolling is not always a destructive process. In fact it's how things ought to work, if you accept the premise (which I don't). And if it's sometimes a good thing, actually it's not illegitimate to hold in an otherwise unproductive company. It's just like owning a bar of gold: does nothing for anyone, but it's an asset for the owner.

Anything that diverts resources from development and innovation to lawyers is a bad thing. (IMHO)

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wright flyer was just sticks, canvas, and a small engine. Anybody could have done it - in fact there were teams around the world competing to be the first ones. The Wright brothers got a patent on it. Should they have?

In retrospect: No. Prior art. They abused the system for their own gain, while at the same time "retarding the development of aviation". "The Wrights' preoccupation with the legal issue hindered their development of new aircraft designs, and by 1910 Wright aircraft were inferior to those made by other firms in Europe. Indeed, aviation development in the U.S. was suppressed to such an extent that when the country ente…

The Wright patent holding back the US airplane industry is a myth, as demonstrated by industrial data from the period:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355673

In fact, a lot of airplane innovation was happening in the US during that era despite the patent being in force. For instance the seaplane was invented in the US (by Curtiss, the Wrights' most bitter foe.)

Also their patents were challenged repeatedly and, despite being interpreted broadly, upheld repeatedly because they actually were that much of an improvement over the prior art.

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#47

Blackbird combines both a law firm and intellectual property rights holder into a single entity. In doing so, they remove legal fees from their cost structure and can bring lawsuits of potentially dubious merit without having to bear any meaningful cost. If there is a place where government regulation can do some good, this might be it. The combination of these two kinds of company represents a moral hazard. There is…

The so-called study that came up with that "30 billion" number has been thoroughly debunked. Of course, the debunking of these things gets zero media coverage, because they get no rage views compared to "news" with outrageous numbers like that.

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#48
post #43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, Plenty of people have already gotten a letter; if they all pooled their resources they'd have a decent defense fund already. > , or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court? This one, I agree, is harder. Best I can propose is a minimum 5 year membership once you've been sued. Or tweak it some other way so that membership is slightly cheaper, or a…

Or, incentivize membership by having the group own a bunch of patents, and then sue people who don't pay their membership! The ultimate protection racket! "You've got a nice product here, shame if a lawsuit happened to it..." Wouldn't you know, it already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA

Yeah it's a fine line between "insurance" and "protection".

The key distinguishing factor here is the protection pool actively seeks to invalidate bad patents. It could also lobby for patent reform. By doing so, it makes patent trolling less profitable and thereby, reduces the need for itself in the future. It's like a health insurance company funding research into perfect health and immortality (but more achievable).

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#49

If patents help society, then patent trolling is not always a destructive process. In fact it's how things ought to work, if you accept the premise (which I don't). And if it's sometimes a good thing, actually it's not illegitimate to hold in an otherwise unproductive company. It's just like owning a bar of gold: does nothing for anyone, but it's an asset for the owner.

I don't think I understand your argument. It seems like you are saying that if patents are overall good then patent trolling isn't always bad and I don't understand how that follows.

Re: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll

#50
I submitted a few different examples of (what I think is) prior art for the 335 patent. My favorite is this one, a multi-user shared annotation system based on an HTTP proxy:

http://web.archive.org/web/19970606225031/http://www.osf.org...

Basically, you could submit annotations to be placed at any point in the document, and you and other users of the annotation server would see them (literally inserted into the HTML file). It was a crude and slow system, but the authors planned to replace it with a Java applet in the future. According to them, “since it is expected that the Java run-time system will be an integral part of all future web clients, this remains a pan-browser solution.”

So many failed dreams… not just Java, but the whole idea of a user’s browsing experience being theirs to command and design, with the server’s response only a suggestion. Maybe I’m being overdramatic. Browser extensions, custom CSS, user scripts, etc. can do the same things today – and of course they’re far more capable, in terms of the range of functionality exposed, and indeed far more popular – but I still feel like there’s something missing. Semanticity, maybe. So many pages these days are just blobs of minified JS and CSS that (intentionally or not) prevent you from understanding the structure of the document without extensive reverse engineering.

…anyway, I’m getting off topic. I think it’s prior art because it satisfies all the conditions of at least some of the claims:

1. A method for providing an internet third party data channel, said third party data channel being established within an existing data channel between an internet server and an internet client, said third party data channel connecting a data source distinct from said internet server to said internet client, said method including the steps of:

existing data channel: the HTTP connection

internet server: original website; internet client: user’s browser

data source: annotation server’s repository of data

third party data channel: connection between proxy and annotation server

a) using a processing device distinct from said internet server for monitoring said existing data channel for a data communication having a predetermined property, said data communication having an intended recipient of one of said internet server and said internet client,

processing device: HTTP proxy (in the paper, it’s separate from the annotation server, one of those trivial details that can make a big different w.r.t. patents)

data communication: HTTP response

predetermined property: various; probably it checks the HTTP status code, though I haven’t checked the implementation

b) upon detection of said data communication, performing:

b1) the step of accessing said data source to obtain third party data,

(querying the annotation server)

b2) a step selected from the group consisting of the step of modifying said data communication in response to said third party data and the step of replacing said data communication in response to said third party data to obtain a resultant data communication, and

(modifying the response to add annotations)

b3) the step of sending said resultant data communication to said intended recipient.

(returning it to the user)

Though, while writing this up, I realized there’s one potential problem. At a literal level, the proxy does not “monitor” packets waiting for a HTTP response to the browser. Rather, it receives requests and makes its own request to the server; arguably that is not an “existing data channel”, and arguably the site’s response is directed towards the proxy, not the browser.

Luckily, the patent’s description seems to explicitly disclaim this interpretation:

For example, a proxy can be thought of as an application level router, not contributing to the data stream being transported through it. This logical transparency of a proxy is maintained even if the proxy, in fact, forwards cached copies of requested objects to a client.

Post reply on HN