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“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

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191–200 of 260 posts

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not be paying attention to all the failures that google releases. Google dominates email, but waves and even inbox I would say aren't catching on. They are failing in mobile messaging. Even though they own a huge part of your social graph through phone and email, they still can't get social right. Google owns ITA but Google flights is not the first place you look for plane tickets. Google also owns Zagat, bu…

> They are failing in mobile messaging Because there is a pre-existing market with network effects. The one thing that Google just doesn’t 'get' are network effects. Regarding Yelp!: Google has spent a lot of effort (leading even to confrontation in court) trying to kill Yelp!’s business already.

> pre-existing market with network effects. (a phenomenon whereby a product or service gains additional value as more people use it.)

Google has network effects as well as they own Android dialer, hangouts, google messenger, and email. I don't buy this argument. They just failed.

Also you'd be the first person I'd see that defends Yelp's business model, but yeah I'm not familiar with the Google vs Yelp court case.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, you are self-defeating your arguments. Chrome was entirely built to be leveraged to force people to use Google Search, since people don't change their default search engine. Bear in mind, they paid Apple and Mozilla each over a billion dollars to be everyone's default search. Sundar Pichai, the current CEO of Google, got started by pushing the Google Toolbar as one of those bloatware add-ons when you install…

> ... and they make Microsoft look like an innocent kitten in comparison. It sounds like you don't remember Microsoft back in the day. Google "Halloween Memos". (Edit: Note particularly the bit about "de-commodifying protocols", that is, finding ways to break standards and create lock-in.) Microsoft literally paid web sites to put HTML in their pages so that Netscape wouldn't handle properly. Microsoft literally gene…

I would argue that if you think any of that compares to Google, you don't have any clue what Google's been up to lately. ;)

But at least you can acknowledge that there's almost no comparable evidence of anticompetitive behavior from Microsoft in the last decade. But I acknowledge as well that if Microsoft were in a monopoly position again, as Google is now, they would be up to the same hijinks.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#193
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google only guaranteed support for two years. Not exactly what I would call "longevity".

Two years of OS updates and three years of security updates. The devices that google had and weren't using Qualcomm CPU got updates for a lot longer (e.g Nexus Player). It gets very, very annoying for Google to try to support phones that use CPUs that don't update or release anything anymore.

I never understood how 'SoC manufacture X doesn't release updates for that SoC' translates into 'we can't update/support this device anymore'. My OnePlus One is whizzing along happily on Nougat (7.1.2) via LineageOS. There's also a well working ported version of OxygenOS 3.1 for it, despite OnePlus having abandoned it on 2.1; Hell, even the Samsung Galaxy S2 can still run Nougat via, again, LineageOS. What's preventing Google, Samsung or OnePlus (who are a lot more well-funded than a ragtag group of devs) from doing the same, aside from pure unfettered greed?

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#194
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google beats the competition in some markets because they have so much power in other markets. If you start a startup even in cloud photo storage, and suddenly Google Photos comes along, you’re dead. No one will fund you anymore, and you’ve basically lost. Google has such an immense amount of network effect, and of knowledge they can gain from dominating in other markets, that if Google enters a market – unless there…

Google has enough failed projects in their portfolio to prove this argument wrong. If they could make a product successful just by abusing their network effect, they'd be able to get Google+ or Hangouts off the ground. Also, Google Spaces, Android TV, Android Auto, Duo, Allo... Google Photos has crushed all the other startups in the space because it's so good , not because it's been forced on everybody by a monopoly.…

Hangouts, Duo, Allo, Auto are all things I already had accounted for.

Because they have the issue of existing competitors with network effect.

> Google Photos has crushed all the other startups in the space because it's so good

And why is it so good? Because Google uses an advantage they gained from (partially illegally) datamining user data.

Google Duo is better than Skype, Google Allo is better than Telegram.

They don’t take over the market only because Skype and co have existing userbases – network effect.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#195
post #186
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, money is an advantage and big companies generally have lots of money. The point is Google is not unique in that regard.

They are actually a massive outlier. http://www.siliconbeat.com/2016/05/20/apple-microsoft-google... While Apple has a larger total cash horde ~(216 billion) only 7% of that is in the US or 15B, Google has a larger US cash horde @$73B * 31% = 22.6B making it the largest accessible cash horde in the US. PS: The ~$1.68 trillion in cash held by U.S. companies at the end of 2015 is kind of misleading as financial compani…

I'm not saying that Google doesn't compete on their cash reserves, I'm saying "so what"? Does having a lot of capital make you a monopoly? Should we penalize business for having cash to spend?

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've fallen in love with Outlook.com. I know, I know, Microsoft is just as if not more evil but frankly I've found their commitment to privacy to carry very well through the service, plus, the spam-blocking is excellent. Best I've used.

While I think Google is more evil than Microsoft at present , both companies fall well into the category of organizations that will sacrifice any principles necessary to profit. When companies like Google and Microsoft are on top, they become abusive to maintain control of the market. Microsoft is down and out right now, and I'm using some of their services a bit more myself, but you need to bear in mind that if the…

I'm curious as to why you think Google is more evil than Microsoft. Last time I checked Microsoft is still trying to extort money from Android OEM's for their bag of junk patents.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#197
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider that also unfair, just like I consider Microsofts participation in the browser market unfair. That said, I know that splitting companies until they only do one thing isn’t possible. But Google’s scale of domination is quite unique. Especially recently, as they’ve forced Android devs into using Google services more and more.

How so? It's been a while since I've been involved with Android but, for example, Facebook is still the defacto auth service for Android apps.

All other push notification services were recently made impossible, Google locked a lot of location and health data from apps, and instead asks you to query only via Google Fit, etc.

Many cases where battery optimizations "accidentally" kill the competition, which is fixed 3 releases later, but by then, there is no competition left anymore.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#198
post #31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, yes, how did I have to scroll down this far before I read "ATT was a government monopoly"? Google doesn't have a monopoly on anything. They have the best search engine, but I can switch in seconds. Likewise the rest of their products all have very well established and really quite functional competitors. That I don't use, cause I like the big G, but I could if they annoyed me too much.

The whole issue of Google being a monopoly is silly. Fact of the matter is that they have a huge influence on the entire economy, and this influence is orders of magnitude greater than any other company.

>this influence is orders of magnitude greater than any other company.

This is silly, Facebook and Amazon's influence is comparable, if not more. And I'm not even talking about the banks.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are failing in mobile messaging Because there is a pre-existing market with network effects. The one thing that Google just doesn’t 'get' are network effects. Regarding Yelp!: Google has spent a lot of effort (leading even to confrontation in court) trying to kill Yelp!’s business already.

> pre-existing market with network effects. (a phenomenon whereby a product or service gains additional value as more people use it.) Google has network effects as well as they own Android dialer, hangouts, google messenger, and email. I don't buy this argument. They just failed. Also you'd be the first person I'd see that defends Yelp's business model, but yeah I'm not familiar with the Google vs Yelp court case.

> Also you'd be the first person I'd see that defends Yelp's business model, but yeah I'm not familiar with the Google vs Yelp court case.

Google copied Yelp!’s ratings, showed them without any backlink in Maps and Places.

Once Yelp! complained, Google told them to either suck it up, or to use robots.txt to opt-out of Google search entirely.

"If you want to be in the index, you have to allow us to scrape your data and present it however we want".

This is a big part of the current EU Antitrust case, btw.

Re: “Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell System Was in 1956″

#200
post #15

It would be great to see more balanced discourse on monopolies, especially in a software-dominated world. Most analyses and articles fixate on the costs of monopolies. Let's assume the worst of Google and conclude they abused their search monopoly. Innovation in search was stifled. Competitors were damaged and achieved only a fraction of their potential. For instance, Yelp might be worth $15B instead of $3B in a worl…

>> Let's assume the worst of Google and conclude they abused their search monopoly. Innovation in search was stifled. Competitors were damaged and achieved only a fraction of their potential. For instance, Yelp might be worth $15B instead of $3B in a world without "evil" Google.

Abuse manifests itself in many ways, only one of which is the stifling of innovation.

Let us consider the lookalike audience feature in Facebook and Google. You, the engineer, are tasked with improving the efficiency of the system. You are told that a 1% improvement in the effectiveness of this targeting produces like a gazillion dollars in the company's bank account.

You start by running some numbers to understand the effectiveness of the current system. You need some metrics to do this, obviously. One metric is the click through rate of an ad when it targets a certain lookalike segment, which is probably easy to measure. But then you see if it lead to a purchase - but how can you do this? In the world of ad-ROI measurement, this is like the last mile - the so called click attribution problem.

You come up with the following suggestions to your bosses:

1. Capture more of the data going through the inter-pipes. Create Google Analytics so you know who goes to which website. Have people logged in to Facebook permanently, often without their knowledge. Make apps which ask for all kinds of permissions which they don't need. Create devices which are capable of tracking anything you want, and you control the switch remotely.

2. Buy every company in sight which might have collected some reasonable amount of data

3. Start making data triangulations. Collect and purchase datasets which allow more of this.

4. To get people to spend more with you, expand the size of the smallest sized lookalike segments (larger surface area for ad targeting). This will at some point take you back to steps 1, 2 and 3.

Imagine all this going on at Google and Facebook scale.

But wouldn't this all happen even when there are no monopolies? Perhaps, but there would be a lot of potential for data brokerages. And those data brokerages, not unlike markets of goods and services, will start assigning accurate prices for personal information. The monopolies are preventing these data brokerages from being created. They are cutting out the middlemen, so to speak. And more often than not, they are doing it with the sort of impunity that was inconceivable even a few years ago. Right now, no one really knows if their personal information is worth anything. But if it wasn't worth anything, then Facebook to a larger extent and Google to a smaller extent, wouldn't be nearly as profitable. There are many startups being created today which don't want to call themselves that, but are glorified data brokerages with the explicit goal of being acquired by a tech giant to get a big payout in return for the consolidation of often private information.

For example, around 2012 I heard of the idea of 'privacy lockers' where people will put their personal information and all companies will have access to it, but for a price. Imagine that! If that had actually come into existence, Facebook would have been acquired by the privacy locker company of course. Which in some ways only leads us back to the original problem.

So the next question is whether this consolidation in and of itself is a bad thing? I don't know, is a nuclear weapon dangerous when it is controlled by a madman? It is worse in some ways. We can't be certain about either the potency of the weapon (private data) or the sanity of the people in charge (corporate motivations).

There will be a reset button at some point. Splitting up the companies into smaller entities seems like a hasty conclusion today. When (not if) these tech giants cross some unacceptable privacy boundaries, the resulting backlash is going to result in a lot of wistful "wish we could go back in time when splitting was still an option" thoughts.

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