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What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

bloomberg.com

41–50 of 61 posts

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#41
post #7

> There is pretty much no way that Qualcomm could ever get an injunction to stop sales of iPhones... Qualcomm is planning to ask the federal government to ban imports of iPhones. This is the technology equivalent of a Hail Mary pass. It was unclear from the article why this is a Hail Mary, so I looked it up. It initially seemed to me that if Qualcomm offers Apple a licensing agreement, Apple agrees to it, and later d…

I'm a bit biased, having followed Apple's legal misadventures last few years. Apple believes that their frivolous patents (eg, slide-to-unlock) are worth $7-$8 per device, while everyone else's patents, especially when it comes to SEP, are $0.000000x. It's not surprising that Apple is doing what they are doing now.

First, this Bloomberg article is somewhat misleading. IEEE and their recent policy statement on SSPUS has very little to do with what's at dispute here. ETSI regulates most wireless 3G, LTE patents and ETSI doesn't want to dictate how licensees and licensors come to FRAND rates or what they ought to be. IEEE is the first and the only one so far to have clarified their stance on SEP licensing, but most SSO, standard setting organization, don't want to meddle with licensing practices because they don't want to cross path with regulators (ie, anti-trust/competitive) or discourage potential contributing members from declaring their patents SEP.

Second, Apple has never directly licensed Qualcomm's patents. Apple's contract manufacturer Foxconn has long been a legit licensee of Qualcomm wireless patents (even before Apple iPhone was released back in 2007) and pays royalty based on their manufacturing cost, not on the retail price ($600 or more). Apple pays nowhere close to what many people believe they are paying.

Third, Apple technically breached the contract with Qualcomm by cooperating with KTC, Korean Fair Trade Commission, last year. Qualcomm essentially had a gag order on their contract forbidding their licensees from speaking out. While this is not uncommon -- Apple is notorious for doing the same to their suppliers (eg, GT Advanced?) and is much worse in many respects -- there are clearly some elements in Qualcomm's licensing practices that are quite troubling as well.

Forth, SCOTUS's recent eBay's decision doesn't too much bearing on Qualcomm's ITC case. While SCOTUS opinions' are the supreme laws of the land, USITC is a quasi judicial agency that operates on different level. Their decision doesn't set legal precedence. They are not in the business of calculating damages, or determining royalty rates or basis -- their only power is to issue ITC import ban when infringement or breach of contract is found. Companies do prefer USITC because ITC cases move a lot faster and ITC is not encumbered by the same high standards that lower courts must consider.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#42
post #37

Given how important standards are in the realm of computers, I think the degree of protection patents provide is ludicrous. Patents ostensibly exist to benefit society while allowing the inventor to benefit from their invention. I feel like in the digital world the balance has tipped too far in favor of the inventor. If we look to the industrial revolution for example, we have the conversion of linear motion to recip…

it will only help apple, not you. the article convenietly leaves out the pricing rules being disputed. remember that there is already regulations for std patents to be priced reasonably and non discrimatory. what apple is hunting here, is a discount. nothing else.

These are all FRAND patents that the dispute is over. In short, Apple is claiming that they aren't priced reasonably, which is a reasonable claim to make.

Why should Apple pay Qualcomm more for a radio in a 128GB iPhone than a 32GB iPhone?

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#43
post #7

> There is pretty much no way that Qualcomm could ever get an injunction to stop sales of iPhones... Qualcomm is planning to ask the federal government to ban imports of iPhones. This is the technology equivalent of a Hail Mary pass. It was unclear from the article why this is a Hail Mary, so I looked it up. It initially seemed to me that if Qualcomm offers Apple a licensing agreement, Apple agrees to it, and later d…

I'm a bit biased, having followed Apple's legal misadventures last few years. Apple believes that their frivolous patents (eg, slide-to-unlock) are worth $7-$8 per device, while everyone else's patents, especially when it comes to SEP, are $0.000000x. It's not surprising that Apple is doing what they are doing now. First, this Bloomberg article is somewhat misleading. IEEE and their recent policy statement on SSPUS h…

Your "second" item is probably wrong (brings doubt to your other 3 items...).

From cbanek: "The fee is based on the total value of the device" and "the royalty is about $15 per phone" versus the "value of the chip (closer to $20)".

see cbaneks comments for links to articles https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302939

Maybe Apple has direct contracts with Qualcomm?

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#44
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple manufactured in the US, they could rely on eBay vs. MercExchange. But Apple imports from China. The rules for imports are tougher. That's handled by the International Trade Commission.[1] ITC cases take about a year, and if Qualcomm wins, iPhone imports will be seized at Customs. ITC rules favor American manufacturers fighting illegal imports. Qualcomm could win this. To bring an ITC case, you have to be man…

> it would force Apple to manufacture in the US. But wouldn't a decision to support the ITC injunction just bring Apple back to the negotiating table? Seems hard to believe that Qualcomm would go scorched earth on a customer like that. Especially one from whom it's getting big royalties from.

Apple and Qualcomm hate each other, and have done for a while. Their contract is literally called 'Cooperation Agreement'.

Apple says "For many years Qualcomm has unfairly insisted on charging royalties for technologies they have nothing to do with."

Qualcomm says similar things.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#45
> If Apple loses, patent licensing practices will continue to throw sand in the wheels of commerce -- and cost consumers money.

This metaphor is a bit weird. I know that throwing sand to the wheels of a train is helpful (generates traction). Prettymuch all freight trains throw sand in the wheels deliberately. Maybe they got it the wrong way around.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit biased, having followed Apple's legal misadventures last few years. Apple believes that their frivolous patents (eg, slide-to-unlock) are worth $7-$8 per device, while everyone else's patents, especially when it comes to SEP, are $0.000000x. It's not surprising that Apple is doing what they are doing now. First, this Bloomberg article is somewhat misleading. IEEE and their recent policy statement on SSPUS h…

Your "second" item is probably wrong (brings doubt to your other 3 items...). From cbanek: "The fee is based on the total value of the device" and "the royalty is about $15 per phone" versus the "value of the chip (closer to $20)". see cbaneks comments for links to articles https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302939 Maybe Apple has direct contracts with Qualcomm?

Not sure what you mean. It's pretty much the industry standard to use entire device as the royalty basis. Further, many companies like Qualcomm, Nokia, Ericsson, do publish their per-device rates publicly.

http://www.investorvillage.com/uploads/82827/files/LESI-Roya...

Apple in their quest to penny-pinch challenged the entire-device royalty basis theory in another ITC case involving Samsung back in 2012 and lost.

As for your doubt on my point #3, Qualcomm translated KFTC's decision last year. Apple also explains quite clearly why Qualcomm stopped paying Apple "rebates." (see "Nature of Action" in Apple's complaint)

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#47
post #4

So this article talks all about pricing, and how the case might affect the price of an iPhone, but gives no numbers. Have to give it to them on mentioning 5G posturing though, which I think is what this is. From another recent article ( https://www.cnet.com/news/qualcomm-apple-iphone-patents-roya... ): In Apple's case, the iPhone maker pays Qualcomm's licensing fee through its manufacturers. Apple doesn't have a dire…

Are you saying that if Apple wins, we are going to pay less for iPhones? ;)

Apple's manufacturer Foxconn pays Qualcomm on their manufacturing costs (selling price to Apple), or $250-$300? Qualcomm's baseband is sold separately. Of course, Qualcomm would love to charge based on Apple's retail price $600+.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would have definitely improved the state of things for the likes of BluRay software playback... Not to mention most electronics where software is a huge part of interaction. I'm hoping we see some serious reduction in patents in the next few years, including compulsory licensing models for several sectors (namely medical/pharma).

I'm not sure I see how it would have much to do with BluRay at all, at least for playback of encrypted content, as I think that's all about licensing non-patent IP and agreeing to non-patent-related contractual terms.

If the licensing were done at the component level, than any software could be used with a BR Drive... no patent royalties on top of the existing implementations in hardware... though, who knows.

It's the Patent IP that is the problem... you don't license non-patent IP.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#49
post #23
post #17

I'm an Apple fan and agree with their position here... but isn't this close to Apple's claim against Android or Samsung? That Apple's patents around touch screens are so important that they should get a cut of the full phone? I think Apple's position against Android or Samsung was much stronger than Qualcomm's against Apple... but I see a sneaky similarity and they appear to be switching sides.

The Apple patents in question weren't SEP and aren't subject to FRAND terms.

doesn't really matter. SEP/FRAND doesn't mean cheap, as Apple seems to believe. Apple can't demand Samsung to pay the moon only because their patents aren't SEP either. While there are no firm rules, most courts look at value the patented features creates (market driver) as the basis of reasonable rates.

Re: What's Reasonable to Qualcomm Isn't to Apple

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "second" item is probably wrong (brings doubt to your other 3 items...). From cbanek: "The fee is based on the total value of the device" and "the royalty is about $15 per phone" versus the "value of the chip (closer to $20)". see cbaneks comments for links to articles https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302939 Maybe Apple has direct contracts with Qualcomm?

Not sure what you mean. It's pretty much the industry standard to use entire device as the royalty basis. Further, many companies like Qualcomm, Nokia, Ericsson, do publish their per-device rates publicly. http://www.investorvillage.com/uploads/82827/files/LESI-Roya... Apple in their quest to penny-pinch challenged the entire-device royalty basis theory in another ITC case involving Samsung back in 2012 and lost. As…

Thanks for correcting me - that link is fantastic.
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