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Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

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Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#61
post #14

I'm a hedge fund accountant, and my software follows many thousands of trades including short sales. I know exactly how to account for these trades, but I have no idea what's really going on. As an accountant, all I see is that someone sold 1200 XYZ shares at $23.00 each, receiving a grand total of $27,600 cash. To simplify the example, I am not subtracting any commission there. Now the funny thing is, this account d…

I'm a bit confused about the supply being artificially raised during a naked short. I was under the impression that the brokerage actually lent me the shares to then sell, and it was my responsibility to return those shares at some point.

I suppose with any form of credit/debt, you can create a market with more shares than actually exist. You're selling the promise of shares.

The only other thing I can think of is that instead of trading the actual (or virtual) shares, the parties in the contract are trading a new instrument who's value is tied to the share being shorted.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#62
I think the idea is that the people lending are planning to hold onto those stocks over a long period of time, so they are hoping that in the long run the stock price goes up.

While they are holding onto them, money can be made by lending out the stock. The security lender will lend stock, get a fee for doing so, and will hedge against risk by getting collateral for the stock they lend.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#63
post #25

1. You borrow 100 shares from a broker. 2. You sell the 100 shares for, say, £1000 in total. 3. Prices for the share ideally go down. (You and others have been selling, after all) 4. You then buy 100 of the shares for, say, £900 in total 5. You then give the broker the 100 shares back 6. You've made £100 Normally the broker would charge a commission for the lending, hence his/her motivation. So if the commission were…

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I'm also glad, that I am not the only one confused about this type of trade. What if the lender decided to sell the stocks that he had lent out? Would the trade need to be closed for the short seller, or would he have to repay immediately and short sell a new lenders stock?

> What if the lender decided to sell the stocks that he had lent out?

The answer depends on the agreement between the lender and the borrower.

Suppose that I loan you my car and then decide to sell it. One possibility is that my agreement with you doesn't let me sell it (or forces me to come up with another car for you if I do). Another possibility is that my agreement with you says that the loan to you ends if I decide to sell.

Short selling is a form of borrowing. The only odd thing is that the thing that you have to repay isn't cash.

Consider a mortgage. The borrower rarely has enough money to cover the whole loan when it is taken out. Instead, the borrower hopes to have enough money to cover each payment as it occurs.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#64

Going to get down voted here but is anyone else concerned that we have people building price prediction systems and hedge fund accountants that admit they don't have a complete understanding of what a short sale is?

When I worked in banking risk, accounting, finance, audit etc had very little understanding of the business, basic pricing & risking, market mechanics etc.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#65
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize you're simply repeating commonly held bullshit wisdom, right?

As someone who has also tried to write one, I'll agree with his statement. Often following the technicals works very well. But if you know nothing about the fundamentals, one of these days you're going to end up making a very bad trade. I wrote my system so as to limit my losses. Which seems to work well. In my opinion the best way to trade is to make a decision to enter/exit the market based on fundamentals, and use…

but you have to remember the vast majority of trades are made by humans and the vast majority of humans are emotional not always logical creatures. So the technicals which don't account for human emotions are bound to be wrong a certain (usually large)percentage of the time.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#66
There are many sources of stock for stock loan. 25 years ago, the primary source was stock in the margin accounts of investors. Today, nearly every large holder of stock loans it out. The reason they loan it out is to make more money.

Virtually every broker/dealer (b/d) that holds their own accounts has a stock loan desk (small to medium sized firms frequently have their accounts an another firm's books on a fully-disclosed basis). Virtually all large index fund managers have a stock loan desk as well. The stock loan desk at a b/d will loan stock to the firm's customers from the available shares (more on that in a moment) or it will find another place to borrow the shares from on behalf of the customer. This can involve looking in a system called Loannet or merely calling up other participants in the market.

The original source of available shares was the margin accounts of customers. The amount of stock available for loan depends on the amount of funds loaned to the customers. The stock loan activity is completely invisible to the customer whose account the shares are taken. Don't want your shares loaned? Don't use a margin account. Stock loan is the financing mechanism that provides the funds loaned to you for your margin account.

Securities can also be loaned from fully-paid (non-margin) accounts of customers with the written consent of the customer. It's a pain in the ass from a regulatory and operational point of view. It's usually only done if the customer has a really large holding in a hard to borrow stock. The customer generally negotiates a share of the revenue from the transaction.

In the past 25 years, institutional investors have started to loan stock as well. The pioneers were index funds, but it has spread to most other fund types. The big institutional investors generally set up their own desk and participate in the market directly. Being a direct participant can improve their ability to borrow stock as well.

The borrowing party puts up collateral (100-110%) for the stock and the lending firm either uses the funds to finance the margin business or puts it in a limited class of interest bearing accounts (I forget the name and regulation) at a bank. The borrowing party gets the stock and promptly sells it. The amount of the collateral is trued up to the value of the borrowed shares on a regular basis, so the risk to the lender is small.

So it is clear that one reason to loan the shares is financing. The second reason is revenue.

The revenue comes from the interest earned on the collateral. The interest on the collateral belongs to the lender except for a negotiated "rebate". For most stock, the rebate is generally 10 to 25 basis points less than the overnight benchmark (fed funds). The lender keeps what they can earn over the rebate.

Notice that I said "for most stocks". Some stocks can be hard to borrow. The supply can be low because large amounts of the stock are held in non-margin accounts or by investors who don't loan it out. The demand can be high because there is a large amount of short interest in the stock already.

The negotiated rebate on hard to borrow shares can be negative, and not just a few basis points. The negative rebate for a really hard to borrow can be negative 10 percent and worse. And a negative rebate means that you're paying somebody interest to hold your money as collateral.

This can be very lucrative for index funds based on a broad index like the Russell. It's one reason index fund fees are so low.

At the other end of the scale is generally available stock. Known as GC (general collateral), loan transactions in this stock are usually initiated by a stock lender looking for financing.

From a b/d point of view, stock loan is one aspect of a business called prime brokerage. Prime brokerage is a bundle of custody, operational, financing, and loan services offered to hedge funds.

One note, the perspective I've provided is largely from the institutional trading side of the b/d business. Retail investors borrowing stock will generally see a tier of rebates (I think the most common rebate is zero).

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#67
post #25

1. You borrow 100 shares from a broker. 2. You sell the 100 shares for, say, £1000 in total. 3. Prices for the share ideally go down. (You and others have been selling, after all) 4. You then buy 100 of the shares for, say, £900 in total 5. You then give the broker the 100 shares back 6. You've made £100 Normally the broker would charge a commission for the lending, hence his/her motivation. So if the commission were…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uptick_rule

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#68

Going to get down voted here but is anyone else concerned that we have people building price prediction systems and hedge fund accountants that admit they don't have a complete understanding of what a short sale is?

If I'm a web developer but I have no idea how CPUs actually work or how a Cisco router sends my packets around the world, does that mean we should be concerned about the stability of the Internet?

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#69
post #14

I'm a hedge fund accountant, and my software follows many thousands of trades including short sales. I know exactly how to account for these trades, but I have no idea what's really going on. As an accountant, all I see is that someone sold 1200 XYZ shares at $23.00 each, receiving a grand total of $27,600 cash. To simplify the example, I am not subtracting any commission there. Now the funny thing is, this account d…

What happens when I buy some shares from someone who happened to be short selling them naked, then I try to vote those shares in the next proxy vote?

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#70
post #25

1. You borrow 100 shares from a broker. 2. You sell the 100 shares for, say, £1000 in total. 3. Prices for the share ideally go down. (You and others have been selling, after all) 4. You then buy 100 of the shares for, say, £900 in total 5. You then give the broker the 100 shares back 6. You've made £100 Normally the broker would charge a commission for the lending, hence his/her motivation. So if the commission were…

>Defenders of short-selling claim it helps quickly respon to fundamentals in the market place.

And we might get sane Price to Earnings ratios.

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