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Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

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Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#151

Post by knob »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #72
whack wrote: post #50

You could say the same thing about any non-glamorous/lucrative position. "Garbagemen make the world go round. Without them, we would drown in our own filth" "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" "Auto mechanics make the world go round. Without them, we would have no way of getting places" Ultimately, all such arguments are inane and pointless because every single j…

> "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" For my entry to Improbable Ideas day.... why don't we bring children to work? After they're no longer infants, its' plausible for children to simply run around the office, sitting quietly in the same rooms as their parents, and perhaps doing odd-jobs. It'd require a more holistic attitude to education than is presently allowe…

You would probably enjoy the book "Iron John", as written by Robert Bly. Your entry for today in the Improbable Ideas forum, was how things happened in the past. Children would go to work with their parents, in the pre-Industrial Revolution era.

Father was a blacksmith? Children would go with him, and sweep the floor, pump air into the furnaces, and organize things. As they matured (both in age and skills), their tasks would grow. Father's brother was a leather worker, so it was easy to send your kids to work with your brother, so they would see if they wanted to be blacksmiths or leather workers.

The Industrial Revolution destroyed the father-son relationship. Fathers would leave the house at 6:00am, and come back at 8:00pm. Young boys would have a blackhole regarding what their fathers did during the day. This blackhole, Bly argues, would get filled with "demons". Not voodoo-demons, yet "demons" in the sense of a "lack of knowing what my dad does every day".

In part, we as a society in the West have been suffering the effects of this destruction ever since. In the 80s and 90s, with the increase of mothers in the workforce, the same thing is now happening to the mother-daughter relationship. We have to wait a couple of generations to see what effect this has on women.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#152

Post by animal531 »

abalashov wrote: post #120
wyattpeak wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd be a valuable question if it were asked by someone sincerely interested in the answer, but at that age children are really just complaining. Could you involve the child? Maybe, but training someone for work is non-trivial. When I'm just starting to train someone, our collective output is usually less than mine working alone, and that's for someone with the requisite skills. How much work could reasonably…

I agree as regards four year-olds. That said, the usefulness of older children, even ~8-10, is frequently underestimated. There was a time when they made useful apprentices and assistants, though admittedly at crafts that were probably less abstract and specialised. Still, I started programming and using UNIX when I was 9. I imagine I was probably capable of some amount of useful output by 11-12, though it would have…

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted, perhaps because people don't want to imagine modern child labour.

From my side, in the company where I work there are a small handful of people who could easily be replaced with fully unskilled labour (ie. an 8-12yo) with no negative effects.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#153

Post by animal531 »

taneq wrote: post #81
euske wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty laughable. To me, almost every Western country is half-broken. When I lived in the US, I was surprised how frequent power faults were there. Streets are full of bumps and corroded pipes were everywhere. And in Europe. Do they have any concept of a decent public bathroom over there? Oh, and don't get me started on how badly their trains are operating. I bet that many train accidents are due to the poor…

Yeah, Japan was my first thought when I read that. You can't tell me with a straight face that they don't maintain everything to within an inch of its life.

Ironically except for the single most maintained item in the west, which is a house.

In Japan they are treated as basically disposable.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#154

Post by batushka »

e2e4 wrote: post #113
Nomentatus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conquered countries that were stripped of a good part of what they had, largely.

would appreciate a reference. p.s. many parts of eastern europe has been destroyed during the war as well; and was getting rebuild themselves.

Here's a reference for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag People all across occupied lands were enslaved (on paper sentenced for some nonsense and send to workjails)

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#155

Post by varjag »

somecallitblues wrote: post #149
varjag wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, maintenance of complex systems or assets, are intellectually demanding tasks. Not as hard as making those systems in the first place. > I am not saying that the jobs do not require skills, it's just that these skills are not that valuable. I'm not convinced that an average network engineer does a more challenging (or valuable) job than an average car mechanic.

You've never had to add a new small feature to a highly customized Wordpress site someone else built I think.

Fair enough!

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#156

Post by rcjones »

maehwasu wrote: post #98

This is like saying LeBron James is less important than Cleveland's role players, because you need five people on a side to have a basketball team. The question isn't who's "necessary", since everyone who is necessary, no matter in what way, is necessary; necessity is a tautology. The question is whose contributions are more replaceable.

Had to reply here given how special it is to watch LeBron play right now. Even if you're not a basketball fan, watching LeBron is like watching an extra rogue queen run a chess board. He should be past the peak of his career, but he's adapted his game to become a better all-around player. Reminds me of Mega Man suits where he can co-opt certain abilities given who's on the floor. He can kind of make his teammates necessary, if that makes sense. And he's more than aware of everything that's happening on the floor and on the benches. Him pulling Powell back on the court was a fun, albeit silly example of this: https://twitter.com/wenotsocks/status/860900323275264002

I'm not sure there's much relevance here, but there's something to watching someone maintain competitiveness as they age.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#157

Post by Asooka »

animal531 wrote: post #152
abalashov wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree as regards four year-olds. That said, the usefulness of older children, even ~8-10, is frequently underestimated. There was a time when they made useful apprentices and assistants, though admittedly at crafts that were probably less abstract and specialised. Still, I started programming and using UNIX when I was 9. I imagine I was probably capable of some amount of useful output by 11-12, though it would have…

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted, perhaps because people don't want to imagine modern child labour. From my side, in the company where I work there are a small handful of people who could easily be replaced with fully unskilled labour (ie. an 8-12yo) with no negative effects.

Except for negative effects on the children? How do you schedule that with school and homework?

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#158

Post by animal531 »

Asooka wrote: post #157
animal531 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted, perhaps because people don't want to imagine modern child labour. From my side, in the company where I work there are a small handful of people who could easily be replaced with fully unskilled labour (ie. an 8-12yo) with no negative effects.

Except for negative effects on the children? How do you schedule that with school and homework?

Of course. I was only showing it as a comparison from the adult side to show that some adults are easily replaceable with children.

I wouldn't want to actually implement it.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#159

Post by spangry »

cgio wrote: post #126

Or as I like to say, "incompetence makes the world go round". Extracting little glimpses of functionality out of a chaotic mess is a challenging, at times satisfying and definitely valuable exercise that keeps many people at work... Maintenance is not the opposite of innovation, it is the opposite of good design.

One could also view good maintenance as the antidote to bad design. Or the antidote to "not 100% perfect" design and execution. Nothing's ever perfect. Innovation is to maintenance as inspiration is to perspiration.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#160

Post by MiddleEndian »

prawn wrote: post #89
dismantlethesun wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" For my entry to Improbable Ideas day.... why don't we bring children to work? After they're no longer infants, its' plausible for children to simply run around the office, sitting quietly in the same rooms as their parents, and perhaps doing odd-jobs. It'd require a more holistic attitude to education than is presently allowe…

If I'm working from home, even if my 4yo has every toy in the house at his disposal, after a while he will inevitably come into the home office and spin around on the spare chair saying "Why do you have to wooooork so much? I need you to help me buuuuuiiiild something. Why can't you help me? I can't find (a particular piece of Lego). Why is Mama at wooooork? Why are you working?"

Perhaps it's the irregularity of your working from home may contribute to this.

My parents were artists who both worked from home, it was generally established that I didn't bother them in their offices when they were working on their projects.

I am grateful to have grown up in such a situation and if in the future I decide to have children I will definitely switch to a primarily or entirely remote position.

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