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Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

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Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#111

Post by johnfn »

maehwasu wrote: post #98

This is like saying LeBron James is less important than Cleveland's role players, because you need five people on a side to have a basketball team. The question isn't who's "necessary", since everyone who is necessary, no matter in what way, is necessary; necessity is a tautology. The question is whose contributions are more replaceable.

I disagree strongly. Innovation is a replaceable concept. Anybody has innovative ideas.

Putting in the years of work to implement them, on the other hand, is rare.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#112

Post by carsongross »

maxerickson wrote: post #56
carsongross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new nationalist/globalist split emerging/subsuming the fading conservative/liberal split is shattering this trope. I don't see any particularly ideological reason conservatives (high conscientiousness, border and rules oriented) shouldn't be in favor of plenty of government. And good and hard, at that. I have said before we are entering the era of post-modern politics, where values will invert (e.g. free speech)…

What's the demarcation of post-modern politics?

Post-modern politics can be contrasted with modern-era universalist rationalism: identity politics become dominant, inter-temporal logical consistency becomes less important, inter-group dialog becomes devalued, power structures become interesting for their own sake, etc.

A stepwise abandonment of enlightenment ideals for raw inter-group Foucauldian power plays.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#113

Post by e2e4 »

Nomentatus wrote: post #94
mee_too wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who supported Russia after the war?

The conquered countries that were stripped of a good part of what they had, largely.

would appreciate a reference.

p.s. many parts of eastern europe has been destroyed during the war as well; and was getting rebuild themselves.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#114

Post by shade23 »

Wouldnt maintenance lead to innovation analogous to necessity being the mother of invention?

Most of the inventions came up as an easier or better way of doing something which was the current maintainer(to be innovator?) decided to rework/create .

And if the author talks about only maintenance where no development can be done(even those that make the life of maintainer easier). IMHO , Maintenance procedures should also be constantly improved and hence that would lead to innovation.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#116

Post by fiatjaf »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #72
whack wrote: post #50

You could say the same thing about any non-glamorous/lucrative position. "Garbagemen make the world go round. Without them, we would drown in our own filth" "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" "Auto mechanics make the world go round. Without them, we would have no way of getting places" Ultimately, all such arguments are inane and pointless because every single j…

> "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" For my entry to Improbable Ideas day.... why don't we bring children to work? After they're no longer infants, its' plausible for children to simply run around the office, sitting quietly in the same rooms as their parents, and perhaps doing odd-jobs. It'd require a more holistic attitude to education than is presently allowe…

I agree with you. All people here are complaining with status quo bias in control of their minds.

I think work can be much more interesting to a child than school or a nanny and the playground.

Also, it would be so much cheaper to spare school/nanny costs that a lot of money could be spent to make the environment better for the child.

We're talking about children older than 7 or so, right? I think children from 7 to 20 could be taken to work and actually learn much more.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#117

Post by sgift »

adrianratnapala wrote: post #80
dpatru wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't software as a service and cloud computing examples of businesses that are primarily about maintenance? It seems to me that the best businesses are mostly about maintaining and profiting from some technology. Startups are advised to keep costs very low until they have "product-market fit", that is, until they have innovated enough to have made something that people want. After product-market fit has been achiev…

Most businesses don't require innovation at all. McDonald's, for example, didn't invent the hamburger, but it has grown large because of its ability to grow while maintaining high standards. McDonalds and its competitors have been continually innovating on the details of how to provider hamburgers and chips to customers quickly and cheaply.

That's not innovating, that's optimizing, an important aspect of good maintenance.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#118

Post by Kluny »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #72
whack wrote: post #50

You could say the same thing about any non-glamorous/lucrative position. "Garbagemen make the world go round. Without them, we would drown in our own filth" "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" "Auto mechanics make the world go round. Without them, we would have no way of getting places" Ultimately, all such arguments are inane and pointless because every single j…

> "Nannies make the world go round. Without them, half the workforce would be stuck at home" For my entry to Improbable Ideas day.... why don't we bring children to work? After they're no longer infants, its' plausible for children to simply run around the office, sitting quietly in the same rooms as their parents, and perhaps doing odd-jobs. It'd require a more holistic attitude to education than is presently allowe…

The thing is, for people with kids, at least half of their motivation for showing up to work is getting away from the kids for a couple hours. (Exaggerating, but still).

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#119

Post by prawn »

wyattpeak wrote: post #105
mjevans wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is asking a valuable question. Why all of this working? How can the work be explained, made interesting and relevant. Is there some way of involving the child that is educational rather than abusive? (Also, if a 5 year old can understand how to correctly use the UI for the application, why can't your client?)

I think it'd be a valuable question if it were asked by someone sincerely interested in the answer, but at that age children are really just complaining. Could you involve the child? Maybe, but training someone for work is non-trivial. When I'm just starting to train someone, our collective output is usually less than mine working alone, and that's for someone with the requisite skills. How much work could reasonably…

Even some adult employees require non-trivial amounts of effort to keep them working, just so anyone in a role with oversight can actually try to get something done.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#120

Post by abalashov »

wyattpeak wrote: post #105
mjevans wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is asking a valuable question. Why all of this working? How can the work be explained, made interesting and relevant. Is there some way of involving the child that is educational rather than abusive? (Also, if a 5 year old can understand how to correctly use the UI for the application, why can't your client?)

I think it'd be a valuable question if it were asked by someone sincerely interested in the answer, but at that age children are really just complaining. Could you involve the child? Maybe, but training someone for work is non-trivial. When I'm just starting to train someone, our collective output is usually less than mine working alone, and that's for someone with the requisite skills. How much work could reasonably…

I agree as regards four year-olds. That said, the usefulness of older children, even ~8-10, is frequently underestimated. There was a time when they made useful apprentices and assistants, though admittedly at crafts that were probably less abstract and specialised.

Still, I started programming and using UNIX when I was 9. I imagine I was probably capable of some amount of useful output by 11-12, though it would have to be carefully directed by a pragmatic mentor with a view to bottom-line impact.

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