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Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

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Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular investing in the stock market is when you buy some stock, believing it will go up, so you can sell it at a profit at a later date That's speculation, not investing. I think it's important people understand the difference.

Really? Given the statement above, which boils down to: "buy low and sell high", what's the difference? Generally, market microstructure tells us there are speculators and value investors, both serving a due purpose in the functioning of a market. Value investors are most adequately described as those who buy an asset below market value, rather than at or above market value. Both types of market participants are in i…

The difference is, for the value investor, the selling part is optional. A company can repay its investors with dividends, liquidation (rare), being bought out... Often value investors end up selling to the market, but you have to break away from the mentality that buy low sell high is the point of "investing". If it is that way, then it's a zero-sum game, so why's it an important part of capitalism again?

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#32
post #17
post #14

I'm a hedge fund accountant, and my software follows many thousands of trades including short sales. I know exactly how to account for these trades, but I have no idea what's really going on. As an accountant, all I see is that someone sold 1200 XYZ shares at $23.00 each, receiving a grand total of $27,600 cash. To simplify the example, I am not subtracting any commission there. Now the funny thing is, this account d…

The increase in supply is not caused by the final net position. It's in what you see when you look at the market. Suppose there are 100k shares issued. Some traders decide to naked short 50k. Actual holders of the shares say, "Oh crap. Half the company is for sale - better dump my shares while I still can." So they put up a total of 75k for sale. Now 50k of the 75k of actual shares need to be purchased by the people…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#33
You borrow from large institutional investors. These funds just own large amounts of stock in the hopes of achieving a profit through dividends and growth of the company. A trader who wants to short a stock can borrow some of this stock for a fee. Everybody wins this way. The large institutional collects the borrow-fee, and the trader can profit from a decline because he has borrowed the stock.

[pet peeve] Note that naked short is actually mathematically equivalent to (naked) long only with a minus sign. For example: every publicly traded company is naked short it's own stock from the day it goes public (collecting a huge heap of cash in exchange for selling the stock). Another example: Everybody owning stock (or anything really) is also short cash (unless they borrow money to buy it). So all people long [insert company name here] are short [insert currency here] i.e. they will profit when [currency] drops wrt to [stock]. Those unpatriotic bastards! [/pet peeve]

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#34
post #26

I just wrote a stock prediction system Oooh, a bankruptcy engine! The most prominent art form of our times. ;) You seem to understand that you've become dangerous to yourself and others. Be sure to keep listening to those thoughts. Just in case, you might want to get a tattoo: Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.

You do realize you're simply repeating commonly held bullshit wisdom, right?

For the vast majority who hold this common wisdom, it is not bullshit at all.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#35
post #21

Regular investing in the stock market is when you buy some stock, believing it will go up, so you can sell it at a profit at a later date. If you believe the price of a stock will go down, then you can short it. This involves the opposite of regular investing, selling high first, then buying low later. To do this, you borrow the stock of someone else, with an agreement to pay them the stock back at a later date. You…

The losses you can receive from buying a stock can be huge. The stock you bought could go to 0.

The upper bound on what you can loose from a long strategy is the money you invested. No such bound exists on a short strategy. If you sell short at $1, and the next day something happens and the stock jumps to $5, or you end up in a short squeeze, you could bankrupt yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Given the statement above, which boils down to: "buy low and sell high", what's the difference? Generally, market microstructure tells us there are speculators and value investors, both serving a due purpose in the functioning of a market. Value investors are most adequately described as those who buy an asset below market value, rather than at or above market value. Both types of market participants are in i…

The difference is, for the value investor, the selling part is optional. A company can repay its investors with dividends, liquidation (rare), being bought out... Often value investors end up selling to the market, but you have to break away from the mentality that buy low sell high is the point of "investing". If it is that way, then it's a zero-sum game, so why's it an important part of capitalism again?

Ignoring liquidation and acquisition, because they are rarely the goal of a value investor...

Dividends do repay investors, but the price always adjusts ex-dividend. A value investor is not happy owning a declining asset even if the dividend pays at regular intervals. They always look for capital appreciation and will, whenever they deem appropriate, convert unrealized gains into realized.

You seem to be referring to buy & hold. Taking the Dow as a market proxy, if you bought BEFORE June 1999, you are currently at break even... over 10 years later. Congratulations, you're strategy is working out perrrrfectly.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#37
post #17
post #14

I'm a hedge fund accountant, and my software follows many thousands of trades including short sales. I know exactly how to account for these trades, but I have no idea what's really going on. As an accountant, all I see is that someone sold 1200 XYZ shares at $23.00 each, receiving a grand total of $27,600 cash. To simplify the example, I am not subtracting any commission there. Now the funny thing is, this account d…

The increase in supply is not caused by the final net position. It's in what you see when you look at the market. Suppose there are 100k shares issued. Some traders decide to naked short 50k. Actual holders of the shares say, "Oh crap. Half the company is for sale - better dump my shares while I still can." So they put up a total of 75k for sale. Now 50k of the 75k of actual shares need to be purchased by the people…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#38
post #14

I'm a hedge fund accountant, and my software follows many thousands of trades including short sales. I know exactly how to account for these trades, but I have no idea what's really going on. As an accountant, all I see is that someone sold 1200 XYZ shares at $23.00 each, receiving a grand total of $27,600 cash. To simplify the example, I am not subtracting any commission there. Now the funny thing is, this account d…

By the way, such confusing issues (pun intended) can never arise in a system such as https://loom.cc/faq . There each asset type has a specific hexadecimal identifier, and the only way to create a liability is to issue a brand new distinct asset type.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#39
post #26

I just wrote a stock prediction system Oooh, a bankruptcy engine! The most prominent art form of our times. ;) You seem to understand that you've become dangerous to yourself and others. Be sure to keep listening to those thoughts. Just in case, you might want to get a tattoo: Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.

You do realize you're simply repeating commonly held bullshit wisdom, right?

I love you; you pay my rent.

Re: Ask HN: Please explain short selling?

#40
post #25

1. You borrow 100 shares from a broker. 2. You sell the 100 shares for, say, £1000 in total. 3. Prices for the share ideally go down. (You and others have been selling, after all) 4. You then buy 100 of the shares for, say, £900 in total 5. You then give the broker the 100 shares back 6. You've made £100 Normally the broker would charge a commission for the lending, hence his/her motivation. So if the commission were…

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I'm also glad, that I am not the only one confused about this type of trade.

What if the lender decided to sell the stocks that he had lent out? Would the trade need to be closed for the short seller, or would he have to repay immediately and short sell a new lenders stock?

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