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Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

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Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#191
post #19

This is one of those topics where people have extremely strong opinions, yet the vast majority of people affected by this practice (circumcised males) have no opinion or even a favorable opinion of their circumcision.

Yup, all these sorts of threads get brigaded by MRA weirdos. It's such a weird hill to die on, none of the "victims" seem to care.

Right? Like, I'll see these old boomer wackos with a stall at county fairs next to XYZ County Repubs/Dems or something, and they all just yell and scream like olde timey street preachers. Usually, the ones around here have some placards with badly doctored images of babies and a bunch of red on it, like the anti-abortion protestors outside of PP. Like old man, there are kids walking around, take a chill pill. You get to 'talking' to them and most are just anti-semites or really just looney-toons (at least in my neck of the woods, ymmv). I just can't understand what went wrong with them that they want to pay the fair org. to go out and scream all weekend in the sun about a little boy's junk. Dude, it's been going on for like 3k years or something without like any hiccups really, it's cool, no one even thinks about it, go get worked up about climate change, or the local PTA, or something that actually matters.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#192
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal posts have been set by the original issue: whether circumcision harms the person or benefits them. The main people who can answer that are adult males who were circumcized. I am confident that if you asked 1000 religious Orthodox Jewish men whether they would have preferred to NOT have been circumcized at 8 days old and instead had to choose it later, an overwhelming majority would say they were glad they we…

You know what, i could say a lot of words, but really, i tire of it. You sound like the former marines i know who defend newbie hazing as noble and necessary. Much the same back and forth applies in both cases, and i really do not want to repeat discussions i've had multiple times already. I'd be happy to read that study i asked for at the start though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881635/

No statistically significant difference in:

* Ejaculation time

* Erectile dysfunction

* Sexual desire

* Orgasm difficulties

* Pain during or after sex

This is important, because circ'd individuals are often targeted online as having inferior sexual organs (count how many times the word "mutilated" is used in this thread). I'm willing to bet the mental health impact of this rhetoric is greater than the impact of circumcision itself. If circumcision should be banned, it shouldn't be banned on exaggerated pretenses that intact men have superior penises and circ'd men are inferior or incomplete (which seems to be underlying a lot of the arguments).

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#193
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. It's far harder to agree to do it later. And it is necessary for membership in the Israelite Nation, according to the Bible. Which means it will have huge ramifications for the person in terms of marriage, children and their whole life. Ask 1000 men born to Orthodox Jewish parents whether they regret being circumcized. And ask 1000 Orthodox Jewish men who were not circumcized whether they wish they had b…

Does the same logic apply to female genital mutilation is societies where that has been acceptable for eons? Is your standard for acceptable mutilation really "it isn't noticeably harmful"? What if my religion calls for the removal of a single testicle instead of the foreskin - is that ok? Afterall, men with one testicle can still father children and lead productive lives.

If there was a culture going back thousands of years where men with a single testicle went on to live lives with hugely outsized outcomes, then yeah, I might say, "hey, maybe they know something we don't."

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These elective surgeries have no relation to what is typically referred to as FGM, but perhaps I should have been more clear. I was referring to Types I-III as described here: http://www.endfgm.eu/female-genital-mutilation/what-is-fgm/ Those are very clearly wrong, with no redeeming value and cause a great deal of harm to the woman, beyond any subjectivity. Nobody is signing up to have this done to them for aesthetic…

Things can be in the same class but with different grades of strength within that class.

Just like an ear piercing is in the same class as cutting off one's ear entirely.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#195
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That nick is the equivalent of male circumcision and is practiced by the Bohras, an Islamic sect. It makes a tiny incision for girls in the foreskin covering the clitoris and it is not clear that this reduces sexual pleasure in the future. It is very far from FGM which removes the clitoris etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawoodi_Bohra We have hundreds of years of data on Jewish males and how they fare after this…

Thank you for pointing out that the FGM nick actually has lasting effects. I was not aware of that, and it's not something that I support. > The fact that it is considered a requirement in the Jewish religion for membership in the Jewish people plays a major role in the phychological well being of the child and adult, and as the parent comment has said this needs to be considered! And it should be. It should be consi…

Exaggerate much? This is why the anti-circ crowd isn't taken seriously. Can you point to comparative sexual studies where men circumcised as adults for non-health reasons suffer from great psychological and physical harm, as would be expected from a brutal act similar to being burned at the stake or being stoned? Most studies of circumcision show no harm, some slight benefits, or some slight harm.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#196
post #19

This is one of those topics where people have extremely strong opinions, yet the vast majority of people affected by this practice (circumcised males) have no opinion or even a favorable opinion of their circumcision.

I guess you have to just accept it if you have been circumcised, because you can't undo that. By you i mean anyone who has been circumcised. So this is like cognitive dissonance, you don't want to eat that cheese if you know that it can't be reached...

Considering the studies show that the cheese they can't reach is either slightly worse, slightly better, or the same, it's pretty understandable they'd get offended when told their cheese is mutilated.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#197
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, i could say a lot of words, but really, i tire of it. You sound like the former marines i know who defend newbie hazing as noble and necessary. Much the same back and forth applies in both cases, and i really do not want to repeat discussions i've had multiple times already. I'd be happy to read that study i asked for at the start though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881635/ No statistically significant difference in: * Ejaculation time * Erectile dysfunction * Sexual desire * Orgasm difficulties * Pain during or after sex This is important, because circ'd individuals are often targeted online as having inferior sexual organs (count how many times the word "mutilated" is used in this thread). I'm willing to bet the mental health impac…

They threw together a bunch of contradicting studies, assigned weights without discussion of the assigning methods and parameters, then decided on an average and declared it a fact, instead of being honest and saying "we don't know either way". Based on this overall pattern i don't think i have much trust that their decision making process wasn't biased.

As for incomplete. I'm sorry, but there are no two ways about it. Incomplete means to be missing a part. It is. How important this is in the big picture is a different question.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a circumcised penis and I am not Jewish. Reducing the Jewish identity to having your penis circumcised is just flawed as it naturally excludes Jewish women. Jewish males can still have their private parts circumcised when they become adult as it was supposed to be the case, a rite of passage for getting into the adult world. Most of your rebuttal is centered around a "slippery-slope" argument and it is not con…

Entirely incorrect. As an orthodox Jew, I can tell you that failure to circumcize your son at 8 days old (outside of extenuating circumstances, e.g. medical issues) is one of the worst sins you could commit. Furthermore, you would be ostracized from the community, and your child will suffer socially, and emotionally. Once the child turns 13 he is responsible to ensure that he it's circumcised, and considering that he…

Babies feel pain, which you seem to be saying they don't with:

> by 13 he will go through with it. So now there's physical pain as well.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#199
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Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#200
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