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Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

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Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#21

Post by SIRHAMY »

pimlottc wrote: post #19
Animats wrote: post #2

"If the President had picked me to predict which country [in postwar Europe] would recover first, I would say, 'Bring me the records of maintenance.' The nation with the best maintenance will recover first. Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western. They haven't got it in Russia. If I got in there in the warehouse, let's say, and I saw that the broom had a special nail, I would say, 'This is the nail o…

Er, can you explain that last sentence?

A nail as in its own rack to hang on. Because they value that broom and its mission enough to go through the trouble of creating a rack for it, you could imagine that they put some higher value in that mission (maintenance) and its role in accomplishing it.

At least, that's what I got out of it.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#22

Post by carsongross »

pjc50 wrote: post #14
carsongross wrote: post #3

Related video by Jordan Peterson, on how liberals and conservatives need one another because liberals (high trait openness) innovate, but conservatives (high trait conscientiousness) maintain things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ho5VZp_ps4

So who are all those people going on about the inherent awfulness of government and how it should be replaced by private businesses?

The new nationalist/globalist split emerging/subsuming the fading conservative/liberal split is shattering this trope.

I don't see any particularly ideological reason conservatives (high conscientiousness, border and rules oriented) shouldn't be in favor of plenty of government. And good and hard, at that.

I have said before we are entering the era of post-modern politics, where values will invert (e.g. free speech) and maintaining coherent narratives will be increasingly difficult. Unfortunately, I think this means people will cling to whatever stable identity they can ever more tenaciously.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#23

Post by milquetoastaf »

Animats wrote: post #2

"If the President had picked me to predict which country [in postwar Europe] would recover first, I would say, 'Bring me the records of maintenance.' The nation with the best maintenance will recover first. Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western. They haven't got it in Russia. If I got in there in the warehouse, let's say, and I saw that the broom had a special nail, I would say, 'This is the nail o…

>Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western.

Yep, no other cultures maintain anything.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#24

Post by devin_lane »

draw_down wrote: post #4

You might say I've observed this many times in my career. I think the best move career-wise is to be one of the people who makes the new thing. Those who clean up after them, bear the brunt of their design flaws and careless mistakes, will never be recognized, appreciated, or remunerated as well. At least in my experience. Ask yourself this: who is the most famous maintainer you can think of? (Not someone who devised…

At the same time, a maintenance position can offer benefits as well. With the exception of emergency bug fixes, maintenance is likely to have a more stable work load which might appeal to those who want more work-life balance. Some engineers may prefer to spend their time on lower level tasks that aren't showy but are nevertheless important to get right. Working on threads/locking/synchronization may not be glamorous, but it's critical for the operation of everything else and difficult to do right.

I think we should be putting more effort into recognizing/compensating those involved in maintenance work rather than steering folks away from it. The raw technology invention is important, but the maintenance work is what makes it ship and continue to work for customers. There are also plenty of widely-used projects remain relevant only due to maintenance. Projects like OpenSSL or the Linux Kernel come to mind here.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#27

Post by pharrlax »

pimlottc wrote: post #19
Animats wrote: post #2

"If the President had picked me to predict which country [in postwar Europe] would recover first, I would say, 'Bring me the records of maintenance.' The nation with the best maintenance will recover first. Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western. They haven't got it in Russia. If I got in there in the warehouse, let's say, and I saw that the broom had a special nail, I would say, 'This is the nail o…

Er, can you explain that last sentence?

That's about when the LSD started kicking in.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#28

Post by whytaka »

Upvoter33 wrote: post #6
carsongross wrote: post #3

Related video by Jordan Peterson, on how liberals and conservatives need one another because liberals (high trait openness) innovate, but conservatives (high trait conscientiousness) maintain things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ho5VZp_ps4

Generally I would agree. But this past election cycle turned a number of things on its head -- Trump was the "innovator" and HRC clearly the "maintainer". But your point is well taken - it would be so good to get back to two parties, opposed but working together towards a better outcome.

I don't think it's so clear cut that blue is left is liberal and red is right is conservative (or whatever permutation you want).

If you asked a retired Evangelical Christian whether HRC was a radical, what with her gay-love and abortions-for-all banner (I kid), I think they'd agree. But of course, they would've spotted that the "left" have signalled a stronger willingness to go in that direction and have cemented their position over the last 8 years under Obama. Does 8 years make you the establishment?

And of course Obama had helped push forward a trade policy concocted as early as the Reagan era. Does 30 years make you the establishment?

That just touches upon just two surface level ideas that fragment a person's perspective about these candidates and parties. Painting HRC as the maintainer and Trump the liberal is with too broad a brush.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#29

Post by jasonlotito »

draw_down wrote: post #4

You might say I've observed this many times in my career. I think the best move career-wise is to be one of the people who makes the new thing. Those who clean up after them, bear the brunt of their design flaws and careless mistakes, will never be recognized, appreciated, or remunerated as well. At least in my experience. Ask yourself this: who is the most famous maintainer you can think of? (Not someone who devised…

Name an innovator who didn't spend any time improving, maintaining, or cleaning up their work? Name an innovator who only ever innovated? Pure innovation.

Re: Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an overrated ideology

#30

Post by Animats »

SIRHAMY wrote: post #21
pimlottc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, can you explain that last sentence?

A nail as in its own rack to hang on. Because they value that broom and its mission enough to go through the trouble of creating a rack for it, you could imagine that they put some higher value in that mission (maintenance) and its role in accomplishing it. At least, that's what I got out of it.

It's quite real. TechShop once had racks for their brooms and dustpans. After two moves, the mid-peninsula TechShop lost their broom racks. Maintenance went downhill about that time.
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