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Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

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Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#131

Post by pugio »

gotchange wrote: post #86
pugio wrote: post #62

Let's add some nuance: Circumcision, for (orthodox) Jews, is one of the most fundamental conditions for identification and belonging to that group. Leaving a Jewish male baby uncircumcised would most likely lead to feelings of alienation and isolation later on in life – feelings which could have significant psychological impact and could largely negate the benefits one gains from strong communal structures. Regardles…

I have a circumcised penis and I am not Jewish. Reducing the Jewish identity to having your penis circumcised is just flawed as it naturally excludes Jewish women. Jewish males can still have their private parts circumcised when they become adult as it was supposed to be the case, a rite of passage for getting into the adult world. Most of your rebuttal is centered around a "slippery-slope" argument and it is not con…

Jewish _male_ identity, obviously. "Supposed" is irrelevant (and highly debatable). What _is_ is that Jewish male identity views circumcision as one of its lynchpins. Kick away that support, and you create a powerful identity crisis.

Slippery slope argument says that "we shouldn't do X (even though X is inherently okay) because it might lead yet another set of actions – Y – which is a negative". I'm not saying that at all. Banning circumcision will lead to significant identity issues as a direct consequence, not as a result of some other intermediate effect that obtains as a result of the ban.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#132

Post by colbyh »

LeeHwang wrote: post #54
colbyh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Categorically false. I have a newborn boy and talked to a number of doctors about it - there is actually a slight benefit to the circumcised child [1], it just isn't enough for the American Association of Pediatrics to recommend it outright. [1] https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages...

Here is a link to the actual technical report, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756 Which has all the hallmarks of misleading data. See the comments for more http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756.com...

Did you actually read the complaints? There are two that seem reasonable (copied data and number to treat) and one that goes off on a tangent citing supreme court cases on patient harm and sexual abuse. As far as harm let me be clear - the circumcision procedure causes less pain and consternation than my child's normal bowel movements.

The former two seem like legit cases to look into, but doesn't necessarily mean the entire study needs to be thrown out. Until then I see no reason not to let parents decide.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#133

Post by Mithaldu »

jquery wrote: post #124
Mithaldu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we'd expect poorer life outcomes for the victims of it. Instead we see the opposite. People keep saying this, but fail to link to sources substantiating their non-obvious claims. Link to a study please?

I think Jews having outsized outcomes in life is pretty well settled. If you're asking for a double blind study I don't have one, but I'm hesitant to throw away thousands of years of tradition. There's a lot of things in life we think we understand well but it just ain't so. Maybe circumcision reduces sex drive in men allowing them to pursue higher goals. Maybe it frees up an important part of the brain for other gen…

> I think Jews having outsized outcomes in life is pretty well settled.

This is not meaningful unless you control for social circumstances.

Also, for now, all i'm asking you to do is only state things you can substantiate, and state them exactly and clearly.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#134

Post by pugio »

bluejekyll wrote: post #78
pugio wrote: post #62

Let's add some nuance: Circumcision, for (orthodox) Jews, is one of the most fundamental conditions for identification and belonging to that group. Leaving a Jewish male baby uncircumcised would most likely lead to feelings of alienation and isolation later on in life – feelings which could have significant psychological impact and could largely negate the benefits one gains from strong communal structures. Regardles…

No. Full stop. Just as with female genital mutilation, male genital mutilation should be banned. For religious purposes this proposal should fit: https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/fgm-compromise-n... That is a nick, not full mutilation.

That's not an argument, it's an assertion, one that does not address any points made above.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#135

Post by Asooka »

jquery wrote: post #99
EGreg wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every Jewish male has underwent circumcision at 8 days old, and they have gone on to lead productive and very fulfilling sexual lives. Many Muslims do it as well. That is probably hundreds of millions of people right there. Plus we have hundreds of years over which to know if such a procedure had adverse effects and the incidence rates. I agree with you that if these people were all atheists then they should p…

I'm against circumcision but I can't deny you've made some of the most compelling points I've ever heard regarding the issue. If circumcision is so bad we'd expect poorer life outcomes for the victims of it. Instead we see the opposite. Assuming the better life outcomes aren't just because of culutural values, I wonder if there are benefits to circumcision we simply don't have the scientific tools to measure.

> we'd expect poorer life outcomes for the victims of it

Now, this may be anecdotal, but Eastern European men are (almost) all uncircumcised and on average Eastern Europeans seem to be regarded as better coders than Americans and Indians, who are all routinely circumcised.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#136

Post by gotchange »

awicz wrote: post #89
spraak wrote: post #5

It's genital mutilation. There's no medical reason [1]. Yes, having a foreskin means you need to clean it regularly (or your caregiver if you're a baby). And then there are disgusting things like this [2]: > In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to clean…

According to the Mayo Clinic there are multiple medical benefits to circumcision [1] To address some of the other points here, I can only give a anecdotal example from my own experience. My wife and I decided to have our son circumcised and not because of religious reasons, but rather because of those listed in the referenced article, among others--and after much condsideration. At the end of the day we decided that…

The problem with these rituals is that they're sometimes performed by non professionals, and in this specific case not under medical supervision, and this may put the infant's health at risk by either late health complications or worse death.

Here's a case for two babies getting Herpes in NYC because of this practise.

Are you OK with this?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/herpes-strikes-nyc-babies-ritua...

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#137

Post by Mithaldu »

EGreg wrote: post #121
Mithaldu wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every person who works a manual job and loses a finger went on to have a productive and fulfilling career. Doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred to keep it. > Plus we have hundreds of years over which to know if such a procedure had adverse effects and the incidence rates. Really? Please link a study, published in a respectable publication, that compares physical and subjective sex performance parameters o…

The real question here is how many men born to Orthodox Jewish parents, when asked in adulthood whether they would have preferred to have been curcumcized at 8 days old or not, would have regretted it. And the answer is? Obviously the same is not true of people losing a finger.

You're moving the goal posts. Your claim was about productive and fulfilling lives and the implication that circumcision does not impair that.

Regret doesn't factor into that and is a separate issue. Clearly you can have productive and fulfilling lives with or without regrets. Whether the lack of regrets is rational or merely a self-defense mechanism of the person's mind is another question.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#138

Post by pugio »

IshKebab wrote: post #127
pugio wrote: post #62

Let's add some nuance: Circumcision, for (orthodox) Jews, is one of the most fundamental conditions for identification and belonging to that group. Leaving a Jewish male baby uncircumcised would most likely lead to feelings of alienation and isolation later on in life – feelings which could have significant psychological impact and could largely negate the benefits one gains from strong communal structures. Regardles…

> Leaving a Jewish male baby uncircumcised would most likely lead to feelings of alienation and isolation later on in life Do Jews really go around checking each other's penises all the time?

1. Internal identity: Being told that a Jewish male must be circumcised, realizing you're not, and experiencing alienation. This can hit adolescents quite hard.

2. Marriage: Barring a specific medical reason to not be circumcised, many Jewish women would take issue with an uncircumcised husband.

3. Locker rooms.

But really #1 is the most immediately pressing.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#139

Post by DanBC »

claar wrote: post #69

Genesis 17:9-14 and Leviticus 12:1-3 do not give Jews any leeway in this practice. I may not be Jewish (though I am Christian and circumcised), and I realize my American values do not directly apply in Norway, but freedom of religion is a basic human right. Devout religious followers would have no choice but to "obey God rather than men", so laws like this proposed ban are simply a veiled authorization of persecution…

Freedom from harm trumps freedom of religion.

This law is not incompatible with freedom of religion.

Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys

#140

Post by gotchange »

relics443 wrote: post #129
gotchange wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a circumcised penis and I am not Jewish. Reducing the Jewish identity to having your penis circumcised is just flawed as it naturally excludes Jewish women. Jewish males can still have their private parts circumcised when they become adult as it was supposed to be the case, a rite of passage for getting into the adult world. Most of your rebuttal is centered around a "slippery-slope" argument and it is not con…

Entirely incorrect. As an orthodox Jew, I can tell you that failure to circumcize your son at 8 days old (outside of extenuating circumstances, e.g. medical issues) is one of the worst sins you could commit. Furthermore, you would be ostracized from the community, and your child will suffer socially, and emotionally. Once the child turns 13 he is responsible to ensure that he it's circumcised, and considering that he…

That's a theological critique, mine was sociological one from an outside observer. Still, the theological arguments don't work under a secular government which takes pride in separating the state from religion.
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